AAR for the Vickers Battle Rifle Class 1-2 Sept. 07

[TOrrock]

Very curious.

How did the Garand do out there?

Actually........really well. He won several of the accuracy drills we had with iron sights.



The final round count was just under 500 rounds over two days.

I'd definitely add a broken case extraction tool to your kit, without it, I'd have been screwed.

The round that case failure was Chilean surplus, definitely something to stay away from. I'd also stay away from the Indian surplus as well.

Shivan, hope you can make it next year, it was a blast.

J_W777, Larry didn't bring anything out, he just tortured me with tales of his recent purchases..........

[wlptpd3]

I just want to say that this was my first experience with Larry Vickers and I can guarantee it will not be my last. Vickers and his A.I. David P. know their stuff. The class started with a safety brief and then everyone verified their 25 yard zero and we moved on from there. Larry gave his insight about the different rifles used in the class and pointed out the strengths and weaknesses of each system. The mix was about even between FN FAL and M1-A variants. We even had one shooter with an M-1 Garand.

The rifle I used was an STG-58 parts kit that I had purchased several years ago and I had it assembled by my local gunsmith, I had the barrel cut back to 18" in this format it seemed to handle better than the factory barrel length for me. I used south African .308 ammo from 140 round battle packs without any ammunition related problems all weekend.

Over the two days we worked on transitions, malfunction clearance, distance shooting and we did box drills and snake drills. Larry is very accuracy oriented therefore we worked on pistol trigger control drills just prior to transitions. Believe me trigger control is the root of all evil. If you can't control a pistol trigger you will not be able to control the trigger of a long gun either. I know because I committed " El Snatcho " several times.

Training like this is awesome because it truly exposes your weaknesses, I for one learned that I really need work on my distance shooting. When we train we tend to train the things we do well and not the things that actually get us out of our own comfort zone. The students in this class were great and I really enjoyed the group dinner at the end of the first training day.

Just listening to Larry speak on the subject matter was more than worth the price of the class and the prizes awarded to the shooters at the conclusion of the class were awesome. This class was definitely worth the 8 hour drive it took to arrive in South Hill. If anyone is thinking about taking a class from Vickers Tactical in the future, don't wait sign up and attend. I guarantee you will come away from it with a much better understanding of your weapon system and your abilities as a shooter.

[John_Wayne777]

J_W777, Larry didn't bring anything out, he just tortured me with tales of his recent purchases..........

That's just.....wrong.....so very wrong.....

[scottandt]

I agree, mag chages with the FAL are not a big deal but with the G3 they are a handful. I know one of the guys at the class who used to work at H&K said they got to the point where they could do them in 5 seconds which is impressive. The front slimline handguards on the G3 also get very hot very quick. Even with a glove on after 5 or 10 quick rounds the rifle was getting uncomfortable to hold. I can't imagine what it would be like after 10 or 20. Recoil is certainly greater in the G3 compared to the FAL, the PTR-91 I had with the heavy barrel is also heavy and after a day of lugging it around I was ready for a break. The collapable stock on the G3 was worthless , it is much easier to shoot with a full stock, thanks to Templar for helping me out with that.

The FAL was great to work with and except for CQB stuff I think it still has a lot of advantages over the AR/M4 series. I think DSA has some serious issues to deal with with their 11 inch version as it had some major reliability problems.

I wonder how many AD's there have been over the years due to the poor safety configuration of the Garand/M14 rifles. The US would have been better off to have adopted the FAL.

A good tactical sling is a must but slings are still a pain to deal with regardless.

Overall another great Vickers class, a lot of great shooting and a lot was learned. Looking forward to the next Vickers/South Hill class.

"Mag changes on the FAL were a non issue for me because of my familiarity with the system, it's easier than an AK. For guys coming in off of the AR system, remembering to rock them in is the key, same with the M14 and the G3 though."

If I still had my Galil in 7.62 I would have brought that too....

[ron556]

once again, vickers tactical does not disappoint. this was an excellent class and i took a lot home with me for this one.

i'm the guy that brought the "11 angry inches of FAL." it suffered greatly and was a considerable disappointment, particularly on the second day of the course. after several failures to extract, i had to hang it up and go to plan B. needless to say, DSA technical support received a detailed e.mail re: the performance of their OSW at a vickers tactical rifle class. i did leave out the part that had me getting a prize for the "most malfunctioning rifle." we'll see what they have to say.

other than that, i'd say that this class was a great success. although 7.62 is expensive, it is a small price to pay for the level of instruction garnished from larry and dave. i took the AK class at the beginning of the summer and my shooting had markedly improved by the time i stepped up to the "big boy" gun this past weekend.

my distance shooting greatly improved as did my short range stuff. though the 100-yd. scrambler was a definite challenge, it was well worth the difficulty. "if you ain't training out of your comfort zone, you ain't learning sh*t." truer words could not have been spoken; it became a sort of mantra for the rest of the class.

it was also a good bunch of guys. as in the past, i felt very comfortable with everyone's level of competence. everyone was there to learn and had great attitudes. instruction was first rate and i learned quite a bit while reinforcing other lessons that have been tucked away from past training.

of course, it is always good to train alongside templar [and this time, templar sr.]. he is a veritable fountain of knowledge in all things that go "bang." his technical and historical expertise is always greatly appreciated.

i look forward to other vickers tactical classes coming in 2008 here in VA; if anyone has a remote chance to train with LAV, you need to do it; it is well worth the [very reasonable] price of admission. you'll be glad you did.

thanks again to paul for putting this together. good work, bro + thanks. i'll remember to check the forum before i head out to train four hours early.

[TOrrock]

Ron, without that broken shell extractor, I would have been well and truely screwed.

I just ordered one from DSA.

Thank you sir. Even with the 11 angry inches right next to me, it was a pleasure to train with you.

[MaceWindu]

I wonder how many AD's there have been over the years due to the poor safety configuration of the Garand/M14 rifles. The US would have been better off to have adopted the FAL.

I would disagree! My Fulton/ M14 Bush runz...proper training will solve the safety manipulation issue...


Mace

[m4fun]

I carried a full M1a, and talk about a handful for cqb/shooting on the move stuff! I learned that no matter how strong and hard you train, somethings can still be a handful, especially given I am 5"6". I think I smoked on the long distance and accuracy drill but less than optimum on the move(and as Larry repeated about a dozen times, the M1a might be great at 500yds at Camp Perry, but engaging targets up close and while moving with that peep sight sucks). The .308 pushed me around!

P.S. - I did not have any, but Optics rule!!!

I need more transitional training to pistol - and hold my pistol correctly for these times(support finger on trigger-guard of the Beretta had Larry calling me Martin Riggs - Lethal Weapon ref) What is sad is that I normally dont hold it that way, but not "training in your comfort zone" got me there. Thanks guys for modernizing my holster!

When it comes right down to it, this course was about fun with rifles of yesteryear away from what we all play with today. That said the course was eye opening, in my opinion how much more modern the black rifle really is. From erganomics, to control, etc. Sure it cant shoot through trees, but geeze!

Larry, David - look forward to taking classes with you guys in the future, remember, I get $1 off the tactical pistol class.

Templar, sorry again about the Chilean ammo - I just knew if wasn't as accurate as my Hirtenberger and was Beridan primed, so good cheap range ammo I will not be crying about loosing the brass. Never heard the bad stuff you had nor experience that wonderful exercise in weapon clearing you had...

[Jay Cunningham]

support finger on trigger-guard of the Beretta had Larry calling me Martin Riggs

lol!!

[ErnieB]

I want Larry's FAL with the Short Dot!!!!!!!!!!!!