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Thread: "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"

  1. #231
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    I'm new to this site also and before finding out about it I purchased a Ruger SR556C. I've put a little over a 1000 round through it and it is running fine. I'm not seeing any carrier tilt issues either so far. My main complaint about it is that it is HEAVY. After reading this thread and a couple of others completely pissing on the gun I'm seriously thinking about selling it. I bought it because it was a piston gun but after reading that the so called piston advantages don't really pan out I have seen that I could have purchased a great DI weapon for about the same money.

    I also definitley do not want to be THAT GUY that holds up a class. I am taking my first one in Nov and am worried now.

    One Option I am thinking about is purchasing a BCM complete upper and trading it out with the Ruger upper. Does anyone see any issue with that?

  2. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watrdawg View Post
    I'm new to this site also and before finding out about it I purchased a Ruger SR556C. I've put a little over a 1000 round through it and it is running fine. I'm not seeing any carrier tilt issues either so far. My main complaint about it is that it is HEAVY. After reading this thread and a couple of others completely pissing on the gun I'm seriously thinking about selling it. I bought it because it was a piston gun but after reading that the so called piston advantages don't really pan out I have seen that I could have purchased a great DI weapon for about the same money.

    I also definitley do not want to be THAT GUY that holds up a class. I am taking my first one in Nov and am worried now.

    One Option I am thinking about is purchasing a BCM complete upper and trading it out with the Ruger upper. Does anyone see any issue with that?

    Don't worry about being "that guy", just show up, pay attention, and be safe. You'll be fine.

    If the Ruger is working fine, but not to your liking, I'd consider selling it and picking up something lighter. But, if it is working fine, the only issue I'd really have is that it's heavy and uses proprietary parts.
    Employee of colonialshooting.com

  3. #233
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    Is there anywhere on M4Carbine.net that has a recommended spares kit for the casual shooter? I figure to get the BCM SOPMOD Bolt Upgrade/Rebuild Kit. Anything else?
    How about tools? I already know I need a hand guard removal tool and a set of punches. Anything else for the casual shooter?

    Thanks
    Hals1

  4. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by hals1 View Post
    Is there anywhere on M4Carbine.net that has a recommended spares kit for the casual shooter? I figure to get the BCM SOPMOD Bolt Upgrade/Rebuild Kit. Anything else?
    How about tools? I already know I need a hand guard removal tool and a set of punches. Anything else for the casual shooter?

    Thanks
    Hals1
    From my personal experience of breakin stuff(with two ammo whore nephews)and as a group of large ham fisted knuckle draggers,I generally try to keep the following in my spares box:
    Spare BCG(I also have spares to completely rebuild a BCG including gas key and fasteners).
    Complete LPK.
    Charging handle.
    Action springs for CAR and A2(I have both configurations).
    Carbine buffers-CAR,H and H2.
    Extractor spring assy(preference to Colt for all).
    Gas tube and roll pin(rifle,CAR and midlength).
    Extra carbine buttstock and RE.
    Otherwise tools for installation of said parts(never needed a handguard removal tool,again ham fisted monkeys here),and a the biggest bottle of lube I can find.
    Ive got some other components and assemblies as well,but the above is what we dip into frequently....especially springs.
    All that is probably a bit much for some,but in my case Im supporting three different weapons that are all run frequently and hard at the same time.
    Last edited by Blankwaffe; 08-10-10 at 17:21. Reason: spellin
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Armed Protective Services II

  5. #235
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    Bushmaster experience

    I bought a new in the box (NIB) Bushmaster M4 Patrolmans Carbine aka 5.56 16" AR-15 from Academy around Feburary of this year. It has been a very long time since I owned and shot a rifle. I bought it for home defense and SHTF.

    My son and I took it out the range and plinked about 150 rounds at 50 yards. We didn't even make it on paper. The steel based cartridge from Wolf and local range reloads (steel) were having FTE's after the barrel got warm. No big deal we just hopped over to the pistol range and tore the targets up with my S&W M&P .45.

    A month later we were back at the range with the Bushmaster. Again not hitting paper at 50 yards. This time I brought some binochulars with us. My son and I watched each other shoot at the target to see if we could tell where the bullets were actually hitting (scary thought). Determined that we were hitting high left of center off paper. I had to aim at the bottom right of the target just to hit the left top of the paper. Elevation was off as was windage. I adjusted for the elevation but could not dial in the windage, it just kept shooting far left. I had more FTE's that day with Wolf. Remmington .223 55gr rounds ended the range trip when one of the multiple blown primers fell into the lower and jammed the hammer.

    After some Internet research I found that the Bushmaster probably needed to have the barrel reindexed. I sent it back to Bushmaster and contacted Remmington about the blown primers.

    Remmington was the first to respond saying that I had light primer strikes and one of the "primers pockets was .0004 inches over process specification." Remmington said the ammunition was in spec and that it was the firearm's fault. They sent me a replacement box of ammunition anyway.

    I talked to Bushmaster after about six weeks. The support person at Bushmaster transferred me to the gunsmith but he did not pick up so the support person said that he would relay my Remmington ammunition results.

    I recieved my Bushmaster back a couple of weeks later and a form was inside the case detailing the repairs.

    1. New barrel with laser bore sighting.
    2. New bolt carrier group.
    3. 50 rounds of test fire.

    While my Bushmaster was gone during this period I ran across this thread. I confirmed with Bushmaster that the buffer spring is carbine spec not H and the extractor spring has a blue insert. I dont know the precise tension of what the extractor spring should be, but I would assume that the color of the insert really has nothing to do with it, but that the extractor spring itself has more influence. At any rate, I replaced the buffer spring with an H and bought the extractor upgrade from BCM. I installed both of these before heading out to the range.

    The range was hot that day at 106 degrees. I bought some more Wolf and had the replacement box of ammunition from Remmington. I fired the Wolf after the barrel got hot and the weapon functioned flawlessly. Didn't have any problems with the Remmington or the Hornady .223 training rounds either. Even got center on paper.

    I have also read about similar barrel issues with other black rifles including LMT and BCM. I didn't expect these kind of problems out of the box with this rifle considering the amount of money I payed for it ($950). This just makes me wonder if quality control (QC) is better on the military side of these houses. Maybe not. I don't know, but it would be interesting to know.

    I'm glad I had these issues with my weapon. I'm a much more knowledgable operator now. The only things I didn't like was the down time and was worried that SHTF might break out while my weapon was gone.

    I want to thank M4Carbine.net for this thread and the valuable information that can be found in this forum.

  6. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByteEnable View Post
    My son and I took it out the range and plinked about 150 rounds at 50 yards. We didn't even make it on paper. The steel based cartridge from Wolf and local range reloads (steel) were having FTE's after the barrel got warm. No big deal we just hopped over to the pistol range and tore the targets up with my S&W M&P .45.

    A month later we were back at the range with the Bushmaster. Again not hitting paper at 50 yards. This time I brought some binochulars with us. My son and I watched each other shoot at the target to see if we could tell where the bullets were actually hitting (scary thought). Determined that we were hitting high left of center off paper. I had to aim at the bottom right of the target just to hit the left top of the paper. Elevation was off as was windage. I adjusted for the elevation but could not dial in the windage, it just kept shooting far left. I had more FTE's that day with Wolf. Remmington .223 55gr rounds ended the range trip when one of the multiple blown primers fell into the lower and jammed the hammer.
    First, shooting wolf ammo is not always the best way to test a new gun out and "reloaded steel ammo" just sounds like a horrible idea.

    So here is what happened. The chamber on your BM was out of spec (tight and closer to the .223 REM size than the 5.56 NATO size). Then you shot steel ammo (which does not expand in the chanmber like brass does). Bits of powder and other debry built up in the chamber (making it tighter). Then you switched to brass ammo.

    The brass ammo expanded and blew your primers out. So there is a combination of things going on here, out of spec chamber, shooting steel ammo and then switching to brass. IMHO, if you are going to shoot steel, shoot steel. If you are going to go back and fourth, then you need to scrub your chamber after shooting steel.

    BM is known for canted FSB's. This problem has plagued them forever.

    While my Bushmaster was gone during this period I ran across this thread. I confirmed with Bushmaster that the buffer spring is carbine spec not H and the extractor spring has a blue insert. I dont know the precise tension of what the extractor spring should be, but I would assume that the color of the insert really has nothing to do with it, but that the extractor spring itself has more influence. At any rate, I replaced the buffer spring with an H and bought the extractor upgrade from BCM. I installed both of these before heading out to the range.
    Adding an H buffer and a black extractor insert wouldn't have solved your problem (FYI). They are just good upgrades to do.

    Blue extractor inserts are soft. Black extractor inserts are stiff.

    I have also read about similar barrel issues with other black rifles including LMT and BCM. I didn't expect these kind of problems out of the box with this rifle considering the amount of money I payed for it ($950). This just makes me wonder if quality control (QC) is better on the military side of these houses. Maybe not. I don't know, but it would be interesting to know.
    I have never seen an out of spec chamber on a BCM or LMT. Not that it cannot happen, but as the oldest BCM dealer on the planet and second oldest LMT dealer, I would have to say no to this.

    The $950 price is about the normal amount to spend on an AR and most of your lower grade AR's run around this price. All of your tier 3 AR's (BM, RRA, Oly, Etc) CAN exhibit the problem you encountered. How you ask? There is no QC being done at the factory. BM does not make their barrels in house AND they just assume that the actual manufacturer of them is checking the chambers.

    Companies that produce the M4 and M16 for the Military have a laundry list of QC procedures that they go through (along with .Gov inspectors in ther plant).

    I'm glad I had these issues with my weapon. I'm a much more knowledgable operator now. The only things I didn't like was the down time and was worried that SHTF might break out while my weapon was gone.

    I want to thank M4Carbine.net for this thread and the valuable information that can be found in this forum.
    I wouldn't be glad. I would be pissed! These companies that make you the consumer do their QC is unacceptable!


    C4

  7. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    The $950 price is about the normal amount to spend on an AR and most of your lower grade AR's run around this price.
    C4
    Seems to me $950 can get you a BCM upper on a S&W lower from G&R Tactical, and you won't have a POS.

  8. #238
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    the real problem facing us in "ban" states, is that places like spikes, BCM and all the other "quality" makers listed in this thread (save colt), simply don't sell to our states. OR they do NOT make ban compliant rifles easily available with out long waits or otherwise even make them. This means that for me, I would need to buy one, then send it to an ffl here who will procede to RAPE me and do a crappy job "neutering" the gun to NJ laws. (some rather industrious shops can charge 200-500 for this btw)
    I had a Bushmaster prior to the first ban and it NEVER gave me any problems, I just bought an a3 m4 for a nice deal ($750) new. I got a good price as part of a package where I bought a nice used 1911a1 as well. I fully inspected my new bushmaster and it has well staked key and extension,no H buffer (the "ban" edition uses an a2 buffer) 1/9 barrel mpi p marked barrel(i am fine with that), and a pinned brake. for what I paid, I am pretty pleased. If it needs the extractor upgraded, it's $15. I have the extra to do some upgrades now as needed (m16 bcg)

    My point here is that you guys in "free states" are lucky. I would have loved to get a BCM or a Colt(which was 600 more) Spikes was my first choice, but they said 6-10 weeks to get a ban compliant rifle and then it was ALOT more $. I read all the HaterAID threads here and AR15.com. I carefully read all of them, they are VERY useful. I inspected a few AR's before I bought mine.
    Thank you for the good info here.
    here is praying NJ becomes a free state someday...
    oh, if you want a REALLY good deal on a target shooter other than an ar, get a cmp garand. (I have 3)
    Last edited by nickg; 10-24-10 at 23:43.

  9. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickg View Post
    \
    here is praying NJ becomes a free state someday...
    Amen.

    But in all seriousness- I was so limited when making the choice for an AR, by budget and by NJ Laws, so a Stag was my only option. I hope to soon get the BCM 14.5 mid-length upper, with a perm. PWS comp, but I'm paying so much for it. And even for a new lower I need a damn pinned stock, or a full stock. Hopefully, someday, I'll have the fortune of ordering a nice LMT, or Knights, or DD and sending it over to someone like ADCO, so they can defile it to be in compliance with out damn laws, but until then, for many of us, The BM/RRA/Stags are the only option.

  10. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickg View Post
    the real problem facing us in "ban" states, is that places like spikes, BCM and all the other "quality" makers listed in this thread (save colt), simply don't sell to our states. OR they do NOT make ban compliant rifles easily available with out long waits or otherwise even make them. This means that for me, I would need to buy one, then send it to an ffl here who will procede to RAPE me and do a crappy job "neutering" the gun to NJ laws. (some rather industrious shops can charge 200-500 for this btw)
    I had a Bushmaster prior to the first ban and it NEVER gave me any problems, I just bought an a3 m4 for a nice deal ($750) new. I got a good price as part of a package where I bought a nice used 1911a1 as well. I fully inspected my new bushmaster and it has well staked key and extension,no H buffer (the "ban" edition uses an a2 buffer) 1/9 barrel mpi p marked barrel(i am fine with that), and a pinned brake. for what I paid, I am pretty pleased. If it needs the extractor upgraded, it's $15. I have the extra to do some upgrades now as needed (m16 bcg)

    My point here is that you guys in "free states" are lucky. I would have loved to get a BCM or a Colt(which was 600 more) Spikes was my first choice, but they said 6-10 weeks to get a ban compliant rifle and then it was ALOT more $. I read all the HaterAID threads here and AR15.com. I carefully read all of them, they are VERY useful. I inspected a few AR's before I bought mine.
    Thank you for the good info here.
    here is praying NJ becomes a free state someday...
    oh, if you want a REALLY good deal on a target shooter other than an ar, get a cmp garand. (I have 3)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rush View Post
    Amen.

    But in all seriousness- I was so limited when making the choice for an AR, by budget and by NJ Laws, so a Stag was my only option. I hope to soon get the BCM 14.5 mid-length upper, with a perm. PWS comp, but I'm paying so much for it. And even for a new lower I need a damn pinned stock, or a full stock. Hopefully, someday, I'll have the fortune of ordering a nice LMT, or Knights, or DD and sending it over to someone like ADCO, so they can defile it to be in compliance with out damn laws, but until then, for many of us, The BM/RRA/Stags are the only option.
    Guys, I feel your pain, believe me. But we do not have to sacrifice quality just because we live in NJ.

    Sure a BCM will cost you more than a BM but for only a little more you can have a better rifle if you are willing to do some work yourself.

    I just built this guy and its fully NJ legal:


    Notice the NJ inspection sticker for proof Im behind enemy lines with you guys.

    Its all good parts... I think. Noveske, BCM, Magpul, LaRue, VLTOR, and Battlecomp.

    Having a PWS brake pinned onto a BCM upper only costs $109. Not sure why they are charging $200 for a BC1.5 to be installed. There is no way it costs $20 to perm a PWS but $45 to perm a BC. I pinned by BC and my friend welded it for me for free. So there are other options.

    A 14.5 middy with a pinned PWS FSC556, BCG and CH is $629.

    If BCM will not ship a lower to NJ [Which I think they will, only Blem lowers are not available in NJ] then Grant should. You can get the lower with Magpul furn. for $411. If you get it with a NJ legal A2 stock its only $360 and you don't have to worry about pinning the stock. Add a $50 rear sight and you are at about $1040- $1100 without shipping and FFL fees. A Colt may be just a tiny bit more. If you get a blem lower, you can save another $90 which chould cover shipping and FFLs. If you get the lower with a collapsable stock, just have them shipped dissasembled. Then just buy some roll pins which are like $4 for 100, and some apoxy. In the comfort of you home find where the most comfortable posision of the stock is, and pin the sucker. I have done it twice, its not hard.

    I bought my BM in NJ right after BHO was elected and I got ass raped. Had I known what I was doing or read this site, I would have gotten the BCM.

    You have choices, and they are not terribly expencive.

    I wish I was able to find any AR15 for $750 in Nov 2008. Maybe then I would not have so much regret about the BM. lol
    ..It was you to me who taught
    In Jersey anythings' legal, as long as you don't get caught.

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