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Thread: Adams Arms vs. LWRC

  1. #51
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    I don't think Littlelebowski was saying that at all, just that there are so many high quality DI ARs today in addition to Colt and FN years back.

    And the real issue in 10 years will be all the orphan piston designs that people hype today. You can take it to the bank that parts for DI guns will be available in 10 years if the earth is still spinning.

    Charles Daly goes out of business. Sad... but ok, you still can fix your CDD-15.

  2. #52
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    reliability is more important than "accuracy"...

    This is one of the things that makes America great - open, friendly discussion, and freedom to think and make your own opinion...and about weapon systems...and in a free market economy that lets people buy what they want, whether it's junk or not.

    If we were in Libya we'd be trying to find a bigger rock to throw right now, or whatever.

    You can look through my posts and see I have never stated that DI is crap or less accurate than a piston sys.

    As far as accuracy goes - in my mind accuracy starts with a barrel (and a multitude of other variables), not a gas system. On some of my ARs, I can turn my gas system off and shoot 'em like a bolt gun if I want. Accuracy is a tough one because, unless you are in a controlled laboratory environment, it's the answer to a question that involves a human being in the equation. There are many different standards for accuracy, even in marksmanship with a rifle.

    Accurate for what / against what standard? At what distance? Under what conditions? For what length of time? Within any particular amount of time? With what action/bullet/load/barrel/on and on? Shooting from a vise? Shooting while standing/free-handed/prone, or other? With no wind? In a high crosswind? Shooting at your hometown range, or under dynamic stress/being shot at?

    A lot of those questions can only be answered by the person shooting. Everyone has different gear in their hand and ultimately the person makes the shot to hit the bullseye, not the rifle. How accurate does your rifle HAVE to be? No one can answer that but you.

    Bryant
    "When the people fear their government there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." – Thomas Jefferson

  3. #53
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    I am pretty sure the original question was to compare Adams Arms piston to the LWRCI. That being said I have always owned DI guns and I currently run a LMT MRP (DI). I did however just buy a LWRCI M6A2 10.5 IN and all I can say that so far it has run like a champ. I have no experience with Adam Arms so I can't say anything there. One good thing about LWRCI is that it already comes with top notch components. Don't let everybody tell you that the piston system isn't any good. If you want one go out and get one and thin shoot the heck out of it and decide for yourself.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRIDENT82 View Post
    Bottom line is that the very best piston op AR will always be by it's very design less accurate...now for most and certainly all those who only shoot CL barreled D.I. carbines, the accuracy difference will never be seen or noticed more than likely.
    Certainly true for my skill level at the moment.

    So in the end a piston starts out handicapped in the accuracy dept...no matter how slight this is in comparison to it's comparable D.I. gun.
    Theoretically speaking, this makes a lot of sense. On the practical side, I'd argue it doesn't apply to a large portion of the interwebz, much like you're alluding to above.

    Secondly, no brainier...more weight up front on the piston op design, thereby a piston starts out handicapped in the weight dept....no matter how insignificant those 2-3ozs. might seem, Oz's=Lb's.
    A good point, and the very reason why I'm thinking of forgetting about getting a LMT MRP SBR and going with a custom barrel/monolithic build. Not because the LMT isn't a great gun, but it's roughly (based off what I can find online) about a half a pound heavier, and most of it is up front.

    I do wonder how much something like a AA piston system weighs compared to a standard fixed FSP. I've never really been able to find a definitive number for an AA piston system (gas block and piston assembly).

    Thirdly, again by the piston's nature it cannot be smoother shooting than it's comparable D.I. gun. Maybe some might not be bothered as badly or at all by a sharper recoil impulse and thereby saying that the piston is not a less smooth shooting rifle than the D.I. rifle, but doesn't change the facts. Again, we are handicapped from jump street with the piston in this dept. regardless of what an individuals tastes are. This can be scientifically measured...has been measured, and is now fact regardless of the margin of difference b/t the two.
    Makes sense. Whether it matters to the end user is probably the more important question. One I can't answer.

    So yes, the D.I. might not be but only a fraction more accurate, softer shooting, and lighter, but nothing changes the fact that the piston cannot ever defeat the D.I. in those categories. So what is the piston replacing this with in order for me as a buyer to want it.
    Again, sound logic. I do think the argument could be made that buying a piston gun in addition to owning DI guns is part of "the experience." Lots of people have opinions (not just about piston setups), but sometimes experiencing "it" is part of the fun of the hobby. I guess it goes along with why do people have more than one black rifle? If a 16" BCM is a quality gun, why do you need 5 other guns of the same length from other makers, especially if they're more expensive? Because we can, of course! Hopefully you understand my tongue is in my cheek. I'm anti-smilies.

    I appreciate your responses. They're far more substantiatve than I've read to date on why pistons are "bad" and DI is "good" (an oversimplification, I know) Usually the responses boil down to "...it's been proven..." or "...because I read someone else saying this..." which is why I think we have all those piston threads you mentioned.
    Last edited by gatordev; 03-01-11 at 14:34.

  5. #55
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    I've been lurking on this forum for a long time, and I get a good laugh every time this piston vs. DI argument comes up. I'm just a regular Joe, not a "D-boy" , LE, or any other kind of "expert" like we have here on this forum. When I made the decision to buy my AR, I didn't have any pre-conceived notions about which system was better, etc. I just looked at the systems for what they were, and compared some rifles side by side to see which one was best. The rifles I tested were the Colt 6920, LWRC M6A2, and a Noveske N4. Using the iron sights, they all shot the same. After putting an M4S on the LWRC and the Novesky, they both shot the same. And anybody who says the DI guns have way less recoil than the piston guns are just nit picking. Freaking 5.56 guns don't have recoil, period. Looking at the features, I thought the LWRC was the superior rifle hands down. I know a little about metallurgy, and when it came to comparing the barrels, Chrome lining or Stainless Steel doesn't compare to NiCorr. And that Colt barrel....it looks like a pencil! And so what if the piston gun is heavier...I ain't in the Korengal valley, and I'm not humping 10 clicks tomorrow. I just need the rifle for self defense. And when it comes down to that famous piston vs. DI showdown, it's common sense-WHY BUY A FIREARM THAT SH*TS ITSELF EVERYTIME YOU FIRE A ROUND? I have my LWRC sitting in my safe just in case the SHTF. And I know that the LWRC barrel will handle the elements and still fire. I can submerge that thing in water, and it will still fire. And I don't have to "keep it wet with lube" after it gets filthy with carbon, because my LWRC doesn't get dirty like a DI gun. I have 4 co-workers (all DI gun owners) who said I was an idiot when I bought my LWRC. I had to listen to endless preaching about the sins of piston weapons. Carrier tilt, excessive recoil, heavy weapon, etc. After that first initial trip to the range, they all of sudden had a lot of excuses why I shot better than them. After the next trip, they all meekly asked if they could shoot it. By that time, there was at least 1500 flawless rounds thru the rifle. When it came time to "clean our weapons," there was complete silence. When you clean that LWRC side by side with a DI gun, it's obvious which is the better designed system. Next thing I know, all of them are now experts on piston systems, and between the 4 of them, I now count 11 LWRC rifle purchases in the last year. And to help fund these purchases, they sold all of their DI guns.

    When it comes to something like a home defense firearm, budget doesn't come into play. I want the best weapon that I can get. Say what you may about my comments. But I did my research. And choosing the LWRC over any DI gun was basic simple common sense.

  6. #56
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    Some great comments IPO. You have to understand though...........at this forum there are many "Self proclaimed experts" who can't read the title of a thread. The title is not "What is your opinion on piston Ar's" but rather it is about comparing two piston Ar systems. So........instead of answering the question, you have to hear the typical "My gun is better then Yours" diatribe along with why these folks consider themselves experts in the first place.

    Go ahead now and tell me how I need to be at that other AR forum.
    Last edited by sr71plane; 03-02-11 at 09:38.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by sr71plane View Post
    Some great comments IPO. You have to understand though...........at this forum there are many "Self proclaimed experts" who can't read the title of a thread. The title is not "What is your opinion on pistion Ar's" but rather it is about comparing two piston Ar systems. So........instead of answering the question, you have to hear the typical "My gun is better then Yours" diatribe along with why these folks consider themselves experts in the first place.

    Go ahead now and tell me how I need to be at that other AR forum.
    To some degree that's true. He wanted to know which was a better system...or at least less of a bad idea. I've both witnessed and read about failures with the LWRC guns. I haven't read about failures with the Adams Arms kit. If forced to choose I'd still pick LWRC(sorry Mark,) because it's more of a design rather than a band aid style kit.

    But I would never pick either...especially knowing what I know today.

    I've shot DI guns and piston guns suppressed. There was a whole hell of a lot of gas choking me up with the pistons, so I wouldn't call it a noticeable improvement. Piston guns ARE more front heavy which is the absolute worst place to put weight on a gun. Piston guns DO have a sharper recoil impulse, at least to my shoulder. People can mouth off about how 5.56 doesn't have any recoil to begin and all that bs, but it doesn't change what I've experienced. Nobody is saying that they were on the verge of developing a flinch because of it...but that it was noticeably different.

    You own an LWRC or Adams Arms kit? That's awesome, I hope you like it, shoot the piss out of it, and that it runs great for you. I used to think I needed one, and then I actually got to compare them firsthand to DI guns. Not only did I decide it wasn't an improvement, I decided they were detrimental to things I wanted to do.

    Not one piston thread has gone the way the OP has wanted in years on this forum. That's because people don't want to see someone make what they would deem to be a mistake.


    http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70019

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPO View Post
    I've been lurking on this forum for a long time, and I get a good laugh every time this piston vs. DI argument comes up. I'm just a regular Joe, not a "D-boy" , LE, or any other kind of "expert" like we have here on this forum. When I made the decision to buy my AR, I didn't have any pre-conceived notions about which system was better, etc. I just looked at the systems for what they were, and compared some rifles side by side to see which one was best. The rifles I tested were the Colt 6920, LWRC M6A2, and a Noveske N4. Using the iron sights, they all shot the same. After putting an M4S on the LWRC and the Novesky, they both shot the same. And anybody who says the DI guns have way less recoil than the piston guns are just nit picking. Freaking 5.56 guns don't have recoil, period. Looking at the features, I thought the LWRC was the superior rifle hands down. I know a little about metallurgy, and when it came to comparing the barrels, Chrome lining or Stainless Steel doesn't compare to NiCorr. And that Colt barrel....it looks like a pencil! And so what if the piston gun is heavier...I ain't in the Korengal valley, and I'm not humping 10 clicks tomorrow. I just need the rifle for self defense. And when it comes down to that famous piston vs. DI showdown, it's common sense-WHY BUY A FIREARM THAT SH*TS ITSELF EVERYTIME YOU FIRE A ROUND? I have my LWRC sitting in my safe just in case the SHTF. And I know that the LWRC barrel will handle the elements and still fire. I can submerge that thing in water, and it will still fire. And I don't have to "keep it wet with lube" after it gets filthy with carbon, because my LWRC doesn't get dirty like a DI gun. I have 4 co-workers (all DI gun owners) who said I was an idiot when I bought my LWRC. I had to listen to endless preaching about the sins of piston weapons. Carrier tilt, excessive recoil, heavy weapon, etc. After that first initial trip to the range, they all of sudden had a lot of excuses why I shot better than them. After the next trip, they all meekly asked if they could shoot it. By that time, there was at least 1500 flawless rounds thru the rifle. When it came time to "clean our weapons," there was complete silence. When you clean that LWRC side by side with a DI gun, it's obvious which is the better designed system. Next thing I know, all of them are now experts on piston systems, and between the 4 of them, I now count 11 LWRC rifle purchases in the last year. And to help fund these purchases, they sold all of their DI guns.

    When it comes to something like a home defense firearm, budget doesn't come into play. I want the best weapon that I can get. Say what you may about my comments. But I did my research. And choosing the LWRC over any DI gun was basic simple common sense.
    I read three words before deciding to say screw it. If you can't decide what constitutes a paragraph, just randomly hitting enter would be an improvement. For you too... http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70019

  9. #59
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    Again, can we stick to the title of the thread. I even agree that DI is better then piston, (in a AR that is) but I am still interested in any differences in these two piston designs.
    Last edited by sr71plane; 03-02-11 at 09:37.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by thopkins22 View Post
    I've both witnessed and read about failures with the LWRC guns. I haven't read about failures with the Adams Arms kit. If forced to choose I'd still pick LWRC(sorry Mark,) because it's more of a design rather than a band aid style kit.
    The Adams Arms kit clamps on...something that doesn't strike many as a very good idea with DI guns, much less on something with a reciprocating mass that will be pounding against the gas block.

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