NF Close Range Mil-Dot Reticle & MilDot Master?

[TacDoc]

This is my medium range rig. NF 2.5-10x24 glass to come this week!




I went with the close range mildot reticle. I want to get the best out of this scope.

My range: 100min-300max yds
My goal: headshots fairly easy all day long (just to hit the 4" target)
My loads: BH 75gr & 77gr Blue Box (this and Federal Match ?gr is whats available for know)

My questions:
Whats the diff between Mil-Dot and Close Range Mil-Dot Reticle?
Does the Mil-Dot Master is suitable for the above task or is just worthless for such range?

I do hit the 4" target at 100yds 5-6 of every 10 times with Troy BUIS -50yds IBZeroed (I think I dont suck so bad ) Obviously bench rest or prone.

This is my first time outside the 100yds with a "real" glass. Is it so difficult? Do I have to really calculate or compensate for wind/bullet drop past 150-200yds?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[2-BPM]

with less than a 5mph full value cross wind 77gr.smK drifts slowly. out to 200yds it has drifted less than 1" 250yds=1.2" 300yds=1.8" 350yds=2.6" 400yds=3.4" 450yds=4.5 500yds=5.7" this is off one of my old dope cards, for 20" M16A4(YMMV.) when I was in Iraq, a buddy in my platoon made an amazing shot with a M16A4, topped with an ACOG 4x 31F. the range was about 650meters with no wind value, using M262 77gr. Marine designated marksman with special built A4 rifles have made common practice out of this range, using M262. back here at home, i usually get 20 out of 20 on a man sized target at 498 yds using my 16" 1/9 twist carbine, and shooting blackhills 77SMK. fell in love with the 31F in the corps, and bought one when i came home. i'll try to find some of my old cards and manuals i have packed away. to be honest, i never really had an issue with wind. 95%of shots fired while i was over there were less than 300m. most were about 100m. i used both m855 and m262, and didnt have a problem going back and forth with one zero on the acog.

[Left Sig]

My questions:
Whats the diff between Mil-Dot and Close Range Mil-Dot Reticle?
Does the Mil-Dot Master is suitable for the above task or is just worthless for such range?

I believe the only difference between the Mil-Dot and the Close Range Mil-Dot is that the latter is sized "smaller" to correctly resolve the mil relationship at lower magnification. Assuming the regular Mil-Dot reticle is designed to work at 15x or 22x in a long range NF scope, the dot spacing would have to be physically closer to preserve the mil relationships at 10x (or whatever the "correct" magnification is for the NXS 2.5-10 scope).

That's the problem with a second focal plane reticle - it's only the "correct" size at one magnification. A front focal plane reticle would be better to preserve the mil relationships at all magnifications, but FFP reticles can be too fine at low power and too coarse at high power.

Since real military snipers have used Mil-Dot reticles on fixed 10 power scopes, using one on a 2.5-10 variable isn't out of line. You may get more out of it at longer range, though. Since mils are 3.6 MOA apart, the first drop point on your scope will be around 300 meters assuming a 100 meter zero. If you zero at 200 or 300 meters, the first drop point will be further away at 400 meters or greater. Of course, it all depends on the ammo you are using.

[TacDoc]

Thank you gents for your replies. I really have a lot to study/research.

Any good links to start looking at?

[2-BPM]

300meter zero info for 20'' barrel , 1/7 twist for 77gr.SMK w/ 2,750FPS muzzle velocity: 100m=+5.77" 200m=+7.18" 300m=ZERO (dead-nuts-on) 400M =
-18.09 500m= -50.18" 600m= -100.32 I'll try to get to my storage unit and get my stuff out, i know i have more info. as far as errornet sites, etc. i got nothing. most of my data was either taught, told or given to me by fellow marines and my own trial and error. i do know that there are ballistic calculators on the net that you can use to formulate a dope card. you will need the muzzle velocity of your specific rifle, the projectile B.C. and a few other bits of known info. for starting out shooting long range with an AR-15, it pays to spend some serious time on the range engaged in trial and error. unless you are only going to stick to one type of round, from one manufacture, and hopefully one case of ammo from the same lot, its helpful to make multiple drop charts for various common rounds i.e. one card for your training rounds (wolf 62gr., prvi partisan 75gr. match, etc) one card for "keeps" ( matches, SHTF, hunting,) such as M855, BH 77SMK, hornady TAP, etc. and another for handloads. each round will behave differently, and you want to know who does what at which range. start out by getting a good 100m/yd zero for each, and going from there.

[TacDoc]

2-BPM,

Thanks a lot for your replies! I really apreciate your time and knowledge.

Eventually I will make my own charts for my specific loads. Right know I'm just learning and brainstorming, as this is gonna be my first time beyond 100yds and I really want to do it right... in fact I'm still waiting for the glass.

When you talk about muzzle velocity, you mean to actually measure it for every intended round type, or just guesstimate from the ballistic manufacturers data?

Other thing, I stated that my range will be 300yds max. This is a personal max range I stated for myself, but I have plenty of range space as I shoot in private property (lots of acres). With my scope (2.5-10x24), rifle (18" SS 1/7) and loads (BH 77gr match), what is a realistic maximum range? 500yds? I ask cause at 500yds I can barely see a 2'x2' target with my naked eye.

One more question, whats a good target for getting started in med-long range? Size, color, shape, material? I can built some if you have any ideas...

Thanks again for your help.

[2-BPM]

No need for thanks doc, i understand the struggle of getting into something new, especially something outside the norm in the average joe plinker world.
getting advice from good sources always helps, but i'm a huge sceptic of any self proclaimed experts. i like to go with people who are experienced, because only with experience and repetition comes mastering of skill. thats why i like this site, it has already helped answer tons of my questions. still, i don't trust anything until i've tried it and verified all avenues. anyway, since you are shooting on private land, you're set. square box ranges are horrible for many applications, especially long rang stuff. its a pain to keep walking 600yds round trip to investigate 3 .22 holes (its great when they are'nt even there!) i see that you have steel, which is great. setting up reaction targets like clay birds and party balloons make it fun and keep the walking down. also a self resetting pepper popper is a prudent buy no one ever regrets. if you want to shoot paper, IPSC target holders & cardboard targets are awesome. i think dillion sells the steel stands. you can set up you're own unknown distance range, and then do speed drills going from target to target at various ranges, forcing you to get quick and good at using mildots. a range finder is a big aid, but learn to range with your scope, since you can't laz over water very well, batteries die, etc. your rifle looks quality. with good glass don't be afraid to shoot futher than 300m. i consider 300m well with in carbine w/ irons range. try your irons out there to, you just might be surprised. 500 w/irons- thats tuff!
your rifle looks like a SPR variation, i think in a small amount of time you will see why the DM M16 has earned a place in many of our soldiers and marines hands. shoot, learn and retain and you'll be saying "wow, i just made that shot?!!!!"

[oldcrusty72]

TacDoc,

did your scope arrive yet?? i'd be real keen to hear what you think of it as i'm waiting for mine to arrive, I went with the NF 2.5-10X24 also but with the NP-R2 retilce. I'll be using mine on a 16" barreled FN FAL for short to medium ranges (10-500M). So far the only bad point i have heard about it is that it lacks a Zero stop.
Love to hear what you think,

Tim

[TacDoc]

TacDoc,

did your scope arrive yet?? i'd be real keen to hear what you think of it as i'm waiting for mine to arrive, I went with the NF 2.5-10X24 also but with the NP-R2 retilce. I'll be using mine on a 16" barreled FN FAL for short to medium ranges (10-500M). So far the only bad point i have heard about it is that it lacks a Zero stop.
Love to hear what you think,

Tim

Yup, it arrived. Man this thing is SOLID like the hammer of Thor! You can easily knock down a big man if you hit him in the head with this scope...

Its clearer than any glass I have ever tried (at gunshops and a few friends). You need to use a 0.05" allen wrench to adjust your zero. I'm still fine zeroing mine at 100yds, but I did put some rounds at the 200yds with no problem.

The only thing I dont really like is that you have to remove the windage and elevation turret caps in order to adjust. I guess once zeroed you get used to hold over instead of adjust MOA. I guess thats how a tactical short to medium range scope is used in the "real" world anyway. Other than that I'm very pleased.

I was going to take some pics last Friday at the range, but my trigger broke. I got so pissed off that I forgot to take the pics. Anyway, I'll post some pics soon.

If you are interested in Butler & Creek flip covers, it uses 13 Eye and 02A Objective.

This is a scan of a section of the operator's manual that explains how to adjust zero for the elevation adjustment dial (3.1.1)



Hope this helps.

[oldcrusty72]

The only thing I dont really like is that you have to remove the windage and elevation turret caps in order to adjust. I guess once zeroed you get used to hold over instead of adjust MOA. I guess thats how a tactical short to medium range scope is used in the "real" world anyway.

I guess i'll see when mine turns up but from researching this scope, i was under the impression that it was adjusted for zero the same as any other scope with BDC/Windage then you simply undid the alen screw and slipped the scales back to zero. The only issue being that there isn't a zero stop, so you would have to either look at the scale to ensure it was on zero or count back your clicks hoping you didn't miss any in the dark.


Glad to hear your happy with your's though, i still got a couple weeks before mine turns up. (Note to self, check the 'In Stock' status before ordering next time.)

Tim