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Thread: Who is making the most accurate DMR Uppers?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    Might I ask what DM type of course are you looking at, or which one in particular?
    I was wondering that too. I've been interesting in getting in some instruction of that type, mostly because I think the lessons will carry over to other types of shooting. Randy Cain was doing an Urban Precision class the last two days that I realized too late and couldn't get to. Would have been a great place to play with the NGA X7.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by venuto View Post
    I have no bias.. My posts in this thread taken as a whole did address the OPs original question regarding accuracy. After that we got side tracked. What can I say. I have strong opinions about things. Just like I can see that you do... and believe me, I do respect your post count here. You are very much more valuable to this forum then I will ever be..
    Everyone has bias. To say otherwise is to create a perception that one is trying to hide that bias.

    You keep wanting to make this personal and it's not. I'm simply asking you to define your terms and explain your statements in more detail. Perhaps the reason you're taking this personally is because you are unable to do so? Hopefully strong opinions are based in strong experiences. I am far from an SME here and I am not arguing your points with you, I'm simply asking you to qualify your opinions and explain them further so that I can others can attempt to figure out if they are valid for our needs.

    In looking at your other posts on the forum it's clear that you like the Wilson, and Spike's offerings, and have an issue with BCM and the generally good opinion most here have of them. I would like to know more about how you generated these opinions and upon what they are based.

  3. #43
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    Getting in a lather about accuracy claims is useless. If the manufacture guarantees .5 MOA from a mechanical rest using match grade ammo for a five shot group in a controlled environment, that's a legitimate claim. It clearly states what is being guaranteed. So what if one of those conditions changes opens up the group? At least the mechanical accuracy is known. If, under the same conditions, the rifle mets the criteria, there is no BS. If, under the same conditions, the rifle does not meet the criteria and the manufacture resolves the issue, there is no BS.

    If the results can be independently verified, under the same conditions, the results are a scientific fact. A change in the results when any of the conditions are changed should not come as a surprise nor construed as a lie.

    In real world shooting, some conditions cannot be controlled. But if you take the above .5 MOA rifle with match ammo and shoot it in a controlled environment with the rifle supported by the shooter instead of a mechanical rest and achieve 8 MOA groups, you know where the problem lies.

    The accuracy guarantee is a marketing ploy and the company is risking it's reputation. If someone calls them on this claim and they cannot deliver, the company loses.

    But making no claims to accuracy is also a marketing ploy and it too places the company reputation at risk. While the rifles do not have to deliver a claimed level of accuracy, it also puts them in a position of having to answer for any rifles that don't shoot well. It exposes them to the criticism that "this company knew their rifles are not capable of decent accuracy and that's why they won't guarantee it."

    If marketing statements are BS and lies, then it's as much BS & lying to make no guarantee to accuracy as it is to give a guarantee.

    Like all guarantees, it's up to the consumer to read the fine print and see if the conditions meet their needs, wants & desires

  4. #44
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    My real issue with it is that one 5 round group is not really a measure of accuracy.


    Maybe if it was 6 5-round groups averaged together....or 3 10 shot groups.


    I see people at the range shoot a single good group, and then claim its a sub-MOA shooter.


    Also the method to get the group should be mentioned, ammo, ect.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belmont31R View Post
    My real issue with it is that one 5 round group is not really a measure of accuracy.


    Maybe if it was 6 5-round groups averaged together....or 3 10 shot groups.


    I see people at the range shoot a single good group, and then claim its a sub-MOA shooter.


    Also the method to get the group should be mentioned, ammo, ect.
    I'll agree with that statement. Mainly due to my limited experience in
    .22 lr pistol league competition. I have a conversion kit for one of my pistols that I initially thought was not that accurate, as up untill about a month ago I was never able to achieve consistent groupings with that pistol, either unsupported or from a rest. After learning a few things about .22's and accuracy I decided to try a different ammo and shoot that pistol this month in the weekly competition. Long story short I averaged 488/500 this month with it which is a score spread over 20 targets/groups of 10 rounds each with 5 targets shot a week.

    After doing this for a month I can at least say that I know the pistol is more accurate than I am capable of achieving, as each week brought a higher score.

    So when trying to claim something is accurate, records of the weapons performance over various conditions will allow you to see the if the weapon is at least as capable as the shooter.

    Even though the competition involves a dissimilar weapons systems it has taught me the importance of isolating variables and taking actual notes of them to gauge weapon performance.

  6. #46
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    If I were to get a factory DMR upper.

    Centurion Mk. 12 upper, or BCM.

    If I was to build myself one:

    FailZero M4 Upper.
    FailZero M4 Bolt Carrier.
    LMT Enhanced Bolt.
    Kreiger 18'' Rifle Gas System barrel.
    KAC URX II Rifle Length Rail.
    KAC Mk. 12 Gas Block
    Rifle gas system set up for semi-dedicated suppressed fire. (0.060''?...)
    KAC Triple Tap Brake + KAC QDSS-NT4 Suppressor (or Ops. Model 12 Suppressor, with Muzzle Brake.)
    KAC Trigger
    KAC Iron Sights.
    Schmidt & Bender 2.5-10X Scope, CQB or Mildot Reticle (or something similar). (Or Nightforce.)
    KAC one piece scope mount. (34mm)
    Last edited by Magic_Salad0892; 02-23-11 at 21:52.
    We miss you, AC.
    We miss you, ToddG.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by venuto View Post
    No fighting really. But the fact remains. If accuracy is what you are looking for you need to concentrate on the barrels. When you look at barrels dollar for dollar you would be hard pressed to find a better barrel Then a Lothar Walter LW 50. Go look it up read about it. I think you will be well served
    So you never answered my question about whether you owned a Lothar walter barrel, reason I asked is because strangely enough you seem to be heavily emotionally attached to it.

    No worries on answering the question now, this thread you started on the kiddie site says everything...easily one of the most ridiculous things Ive seen done on the incredibly silly internet. That thread is classic and has your name written all over it.
    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...f=118&t=528325

    I wonder if Spikes offers a Lothar walter barrel......
    http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/...556-p-436.html

    I will be laughing about this for awhile, thanks
    Last edited by ALCOAR; 02-24-11 at 10:21.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TROPICS View Post
    Venuto....you are fighting a losing battle...Alot of the people on this board are BCM or go home....yes it's silly and it is the definiton of "fanboy" regardless of how someone trys to spin it....That being said i own a bcm and it is awesome
    This isn't a BCM only site. BCM simply has the best bang for the buck in terms of quality, support, and customer service. No one here is going to knock someone down for picking a Colt, LMT, Noveske, Daniel Defense, or S&W rifle - those are all quality manufacturers.

    A quality manufacturer will sell you a rifle that goes bang when you need it to, where you need it to. What a quality manufacturer won't do is put the castle nut on backwards by accident and then lie that it was the request of special operations units because they were cutting their fingers on it. Want to guess who was stupid enough to make that up? (Hint: they make custom 1911's)
    Last edited by Skyyr; 02-24-11 at 11:31.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRIDENT82 View Post
    So you never answered my question about whether you owned a Lothar walter barrel, reason I asked is because strangely enough you seem to be heavily emotionally attached to it.

    No worries on answering the question now, this thread you started on the kiddie site says everything...easily one of the most ridiculous things Ive seen done on the incredibly silly internet. That thread is classic and has your name written all over it.
    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...f=118&t=528325

    I wonder if Spikes offers a Lothar walter barrel......
    http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/...556-p-436.html

    I will be laughing about this for awhile, thanks
    Awwww... thumbody's thuper thensitive.

    Thanks man! That explains a lot. The pent up frustration, the suggestions for a Spikes and a LW50 barrel, and now a whiny post because nobody is praising his AR of choice. Ha!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRIDENT82 View Post
    So you never answered my question about whether you owned a Lothar walter barrel, reason I asked is because strangely enough you seem to be heavily emotionally attached to it.

    No worries on answering the question now, this thread you started on the kiddie site says everything...easily one of the most ridiculous things Ive seen done on the incredibly silly internet. That thread is classic and has your name written all over it.
    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...f=118&t=528325

    I wonder if Spikes offers a Lothar walter barrel......
    http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/...556-p-436.html

    I will be laughing about this for awhile, thanks
    Oh man, thanks for that! I love being "Grant's Chronie".
    Last edited by rob_s; 02-24-11 at 12:13.

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