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Thread: Vortex Flash hider

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK18Pilot View Post
    The only credit that should ever be given to Ron Smith is being smart enough to patent someone else's hard work and trademark the word Vortex.
    Why is it on this forum it seems necessary to personally attack individuals? Particularly when much of what is said is supposition. I would caution you against slander, which is so freely done around here. Wouldn't it be a bit more palatable to simply state your experience and that you prefer something else?

    I don't have a dog in the fight, I have no preference, but it would be interesting to have Ron Smith come on and answer to what you have presented as fact, but in reality is your opinion. I would rather you say you don't care for the guy - which is where your anger and vitriol seem to be focused - and move on. I see you are from the same neck of the woods, is there some reason for your intense dislike of SEI, Ron Smith, Sonja Sommers et. al that we don't know about?


    Quote Originally Posted by MK18Pilot View Post
    An engineer named Tim LaFrance developed the four prong flash hider as originally seen on his M16K in 1982. It was substantially the same as the one currently sold by Young Manufacturing. It in itself was a re-design of the Stoll flash hider seen on the Stg 58 in the 50's. Smith changed the angle of the slots to a six degree cant and had it patented under his girlfriends name, Sonja Sommers. He then trademarked the word Vortex and has spent the last several years suing everyone who copied his copy.
    Actually, I used to be in fairly regular contact with Tim and used to buy quite a few pieces from him including several M16K's, and a regurgitated 'history' lesson is not necessary thank-you. Have you ever spoken to Tim? Curious what he would think, by what you say, LaFrance 'stole' the design from the Belgians/Germans. So now there are two “thieves” in the mix using your line of thinking. I suppose HK "stole" the "Lafrance version" for the 53 too. Holy cow, now three 'thieves"!

    A current straight pronged open flash hider is and was not some “flash of genius”. It was a variation/evolution of an existing design, probably like 90% of the products out there. You really think all this stuff is new? The AAC blackout is a modified model 2 three prong flash hider. Did Bittingham steal that from ArmaLite?

    You are incorrect, the prongs on a Vortex use a graduated degree of twist.

    Quote Originally Posted by MK18Pilot View Post
    Markm is right. It is a worthless muzzle device for a military weapon. I don't give a shit how many he has given away to GI's. It's cons are far outweighed by its one pro.
    Apparently you didn't read the link provided, as NSWC apparently thinks enough of the SEI Vortex to let a contract for up to 4500 units in .50BMG. I guess the Army thinks it sucks too, because they were manufacturing copies. But hey, I will defer to you, the one in the know.
    Last edited by Coleslaw; 02-25-11 at 09:28. Reason: spelling

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post

    You are incorrect, the prongs on a Vortex use a graduated degree of twist.
    There is certainly a lot to address here. In trying to keep to the subject of the Vortex, lets start with the Patent which clearly states:

    ...including four equally spaced flutes angled six degrees from a centerline of the body member.

    How does graduated fit in? The flutes are also described as helical which is a misnomer in my opinion but please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

    Here is a link to the Patent.
    Last edited by MarkG; 02-25-11 at 11:28. Reason: Add Patent link

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post
    Why is it on this forum it seems necessary to personally attack individuals?
    Whatever it is, it's very strongly related to your personal drive to state things in the most clever way possible, thus insuring that any valuable info you might have to pass is lost amidst the smarmy tone and "why isn't everybody recognizing my genius?" attitude.

    Example: How the hell does Mk18 know what is or is not a part of your personal fount of historical knowledge? Or with whom you "used to be in fairly regular contact with..." (nice broad, airy metric to use in a non-verifiable statement, BTW; what's anybody gonna do, call and check?)?

    IG just got through posting a general directive to dial back the invective, yet here you are, so bent on sparring that you didn't notice or read it, or are so full of yourself that you deliberately chose to ignore it.

    Neither of those scenarios are really favorable for you.
    Contractor scum, AAV

  4. #44
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    I am not a firearms engineer, designer or anything else. So let me just say that I think most of us can agree that many changes, updates and accessories for firearms, in particular the AR platform are really nothing more than an evolution of ideas that are already out there.

    In many cases they are changes to something that already exists as viewed through the eyes of someone else.

    Let's not make crazy accusations and finger pointing about people stealing designs, etc...



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  5. #45
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    From personal conversation several years ago came the graduated (5 degree to 15 degree I was told) statement I made. It could have been 6 degrees, but I thought I was told 5 degrees. Following is from the SEI website referencing the 15 degree helix:

    http://www.smithenterprise.com/spec/SE-Vortex_M240.pdf

    There may be more references but I did not put too much time into it.

    I have used them on varous things and never have heard of the problems as describe with an SEI manufactured unit.

    I am curious about the feedback on the Vortex (that a few stated where it had failed them for one reason or another) without getting into the nuances of human behavior and/or ethics. The thread was about the Vortex and its performance, not who did or didn't design it, if the design was or wasn't 'stolen', if this guy or gal is or isn't a genius, or is or isn't credible.

  6. #46
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    http://img607.imageshack.us/i/vortex.jpg/


    Around 6500 rounds this happened. Vortex replaced quickly and customer service was good about it. Which flash hiders excel to minimize dust printing?
    Last edited by FishingFool; 02-25-11 at 16:24. Reason: can't seem to get image to appear....

  7. #47
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    Never have seen anything like that from normal use. Looks like it was dropped or was used to pry with. Was that one purchased from SEI? LMT has a 'warning' on their website about fake SOPMOD stocks, I wonder if some of these failed Vortex fh's are fakes. I know there was a ton of them out there.

  8. #48
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    FWIW- I had one (SEI) on my SOCOM 16 build and it worked damn good. But, I also wasn't using it in "combat" or anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coleslaw View Post
    From personal conversation several years ago came the graduated (5 degree to 15 degree I was told) statement I made. It could have been 6 degrees, but I thought I was told 5 degrees. Following is from the SEI website referencing the 15 degree helix:

    http://www.smithenterprise.com/spec/SE-Vortex_M240.pdf

    There may be more references but I did not put too much time into it.

    I have used them on varous things and never have heard of the problems as describe with an SEI manufactured unit.

    I am curious about the feedback on the Vortex (that a few stated where it had failed them for one reason or another) without getting into the nuances of human behavior and/or ethics. The thread was about the Vortex and its performance, not who did or didn't design it, if the design was or wasn't 'stolen', if this guy or gal is or isn't a genius, or is or isn't credible.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

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  9. #49
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    I got the AAC non-mount blackout for my 10.5" I wanted the best flash suppression for such a short barrel and also like that the 3 big prongs are a lot thicker and less prone to bending than the thinner 4 Vortex prongs (probably not a big worry though).
    "The world's a dangerous place – we can help." -www.portlandfirearmtraining.com
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  10. #50
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    I have a Vortex with nearly 10,000 rounds through it and it's taken a beating. The worst of which was probably a 220lb oaf driving it into packed gravel (might as well have been concrete) with full force and momentum behind him.

    Functionally it' still like new (cosmetically not so much). Maybe I've just been lucky...

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