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Thread: Range 37 - Gunfighter Match this Saturday March 5

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by theblackknight View Post
    I think they should turn this style match into a federation like IDPA etc. It would bring the anti gaming crowd out and prob force a few IPSC wieners over to the dark side.
    It looks real similar to what some of us have been doing in Florida for 10+ years. Florida Defensive Carbine Club shoots in Lake City and has been running for over 10 years, South Florida Defensive Carbine Club ("my" match until last month) has been running for over 6, and Central Florida Defensive Carbine Club has been running for over a year.

    The problem with founding an actual organization, more than anything else, is that combining scoring systems or determining which is best is like trying to unite the city-states of ancient Greece!

    FDCC and SFDCC operate on a neutralize/failure-to-neutralize scoring system while CFDCC operates on an IDPA scoring system with increased penalties.

    However, the scoring system is key to keeping the gamers out. We penalize a shooter 30 seconds for an FTN and 30 seconds for a hit on a non-threat, and 100 seconds for a failure to do right. Most with an extensive background in gaming do NOT like this, and I have been told directly in the past "it was a fun match but I'm not coming back until the scoring system changes".

    When I was running things we had two types of stages: scenarios and drills. My scenarios were rarely the stupid IDPA narratives of "you're at the gas station with your family and..." unless it was germane to the stage. For example, we had a shoot house stage and I wanted to impress upon the shooters the need to get through it quickly, so the scenario was that a badguy had your daughter in the back bedroom and you needed to get to her.

    After doing this for six years I have a lot of opinions about what makes for good stage design, and categorizing them into those two groups goes a long way towards this.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by theblackknight View Post
    Yeah man, I was the one in the tan interceptor and battle belt in group 2. Who was rockin the M4c shirt and M&P15? welchtactical is one of the RO's, he must have had a bad day cause I finished right behind him on my first match.Find her channel on youtube, he got some helmet cams of the matches.
    OK, you were in my squad then.

    I think they should turn this style match into a federation like IDPA etc. It would bring the anti gaming crowd out and prob force a few IPSC wieners over to the dark side.

    I def learned some valuable stuff.
    I think that's the long term idea. You really can't go into it with a gaming attitude. Yes, it's a timed event but in many ways it's a class as much as it's a competition.

    1:I have no bid'ness with a 300y zero. my head shots from the far port went high and all I saw was berm moving behind the target, thought I was good. other than that, I had one procederal in the house for exposure.
    Try a 50 yard battle zero. IMHO it's one of the most functional. Unless I'm doing close in head-shots I just put my dot in the center of my target and press the trigger.
    2: row machines,slo runs and rucking arnt enough for cardio. I need to do more sprints w vest.
    I imagine the amount of obstacles and sprints are only going to increase!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Rat View Post
    I shot the matches this weekend as well. Did ok in the Friday Night Fights match and definitely not as well as I wanted in the Gunfighter... oh well, everyone has one of those days. I'm happy with my shooting consistency wise, but the speed just wasn't there for some reason. This is McGraw by the way. Good shooting with y'all!
    Good shooting with you as well!

  3. #13
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    However, the scoring system is key to keeping the gamers out. We penalize a shooter 30 seconds for an FTN and 30 seconds for a hit on a non-threat, and 100 seconds for a failure to do right. Most with an extensive background in gaming do NOT like this, and I have been told directly in the past "it was a fun match but I'm not coming back until the scoring system changes".
    Agreed. The scoring system has been evolving since we ran the first match. Procedurals (which are loosely defined as 'anything that will get you kilt in combat') are compounding. One goof will cost you 10 seconds, the next will cost you 20, and on and on. You cannot win by blazing through the course. On top of that, if you shoot clean (no misses, no non-threat hits, no procedurals) you get a 20 second bonus. Really makes you slow down a bit and concentrate on tactics and accuracy.

    Target zone is basically a six-inch strip up the center of the body from forehead to pelvis. You can put 50 rounds into a target, but if you don't get two in the scoring area you missed. Non-threats are typically positioned to make for some tricky shots.

    When I was running things we had two types of stages: scenarios and drills. My scenarios were rarely the stupid IDPA narratives of "you're at the gas station with your family and..." unless it was germane to the stage. For example, we had a shoot house stage and I wanted to impress upon the shooters the need to get through it quickly, so the scenario was that a badguy had your daughter in the back bedroom and you needed to get to her.
    The Gunfighter League usually consists of:

    1) One large stage that requires lots of movement, obstacles, target discrimination, and transitions.

    2) 3-5 CTEs (Combat Task Evaluations) that change through the course of the year. Two-gun el pres, panic drills, one-shot draws, etc.

    3) Blind kill-house stage. Similar to what you mention, one man enters and has to work his way to the back of the house while navigating corners, portals, and obstacles. Get's the adrenaline pumping. 37's kill house is really the coolest thing that anyone not in the military can do with a gun.

  4. #14
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    I'm gonna make this match at some point over the next couple of months. Should have a few people with me as well.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by fyeguy View Post
    Agreed. The scoring system has been evolving since we ran the first match. Procedurals (which are loosely defined as 'anything that will get you kilt in combat') are compounding. One goof will cost you 10 seconds, the next will cost you 20, and on and on. You cannot win by blazing through the course. On top of that, if you shoot clean (no misses, no non-threat hits, no procedurals) you get a 20 second bonus. Really makes you slow down a bit and concentrate on tactics and accuracy.
    I LIKE the compounding procedural thing! Very cool!

    Given our 30-seconds per FTN and NT, we pretty much automatically wind up with a bonus for shooting it clean. When you view our scores you typically have the clean-shooters at the top, and just about anyone that gets an FTN or NT is out of the running.

    Target zone is basically a six-inch strip up the center of the body from forehead to pelvis. You can put 50 rounds into a target, but if you don't get two in the scoring area you missed. Non-threats are typically positioned to make for some tricky shots.
    We use IDPA targets, in part because the parent club is IDPA and we get them "free". 2 shots in the -0, or 3 shots in the -1 (or better) counts as "neutralized". 27 hits in the -3 gets you nothing. Examples of neutralized targets can be seen in our rules here.

    What I really, really want to use are these targets, and we did once but they got cost-prohibitive and with the paper targets it gets hard to score. I looked into getting these zones perforated into these carboards but it got REALLY expensive. When we used the paper, we made the ocular/nasal and the center circle of the chest the same as the current -0 (2 shots) and the rest of the head and the outer tear-drop in the chest the same as the -1 (3 shots). IMO it had exactly the desired effect.

    Alternately, going forward I had plans to change to the USPSA target with the torso A-zone cut in half so only the top section counts. I personally think most competition targets are too lenient.

    I've avoided linking the head and chest scoring zones in part because I want to force people to continue to work on hold-overs at various distances. I have gotten some flack for not having a spinal column hit count, but the tradeoff has been worth it for me.

    I don't mean to hijack your thread here. This has been a passion of mine for the past 6 years. Just before I quit I even went to 3D COF design to help the setup crew visualize the intent, and we started publishing COF to the email list prior to the matches unless the stages were intended to be "blind". If you ever want to compare notes or would prefer to continue the discussion off the forum please feel free to email me at rob AT tacticalyellowvisor DOT net. I love talking about this stuff as I find other people's approaches to the same goal fascinating. Eventually I'll get back into running these kind of matches, even if at a different venue than my old one.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by fyeguy View Post
    2) 3-5 CTEs (Combat Task Evaluations) that change through the course of the year. Two-gun el pres, panic drills, one-shot draws, etc.
    I had a goal of establishing six standards such that we would run each one 2 times per year and allow the shooters to track their own progress on the standards. Unfortunately I had a lot of offers of help but essentially ran the show alone for most of the time because it was hard to find someone that shared my vision for the events and even when people did step up I wound not liking their direction (like pushing competition, IMHO "quantity", over good fundamentals, IMHO "quality"). Just never had the time to set up to track these and establish what they would be. Obviously with the explosion of training drills of late there is no shortage of material now. 9-hole, 1-5, gear shift, etc.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I LIKE the compounding procedural thing! Very cool!

    Given our 30-seconds per FTN and NT, we pretty much automatically wind up with a bonus for shooting it clean. When you view our scores you typically have the clean-shooters at the top, and just about anyone that gets an FTN or NT is out of the running.
    Sounds familiar.

    What I really, really want to use are these targets, and we did once but they got cost-prohibitive and with the paper targets it gets hard to score
    That's a good looking target. Right now we're using modified IPSC targets, but I think eventually we'll have some custom ones made up.

    Alternately, going forward I had plans to change to the USPSA target with the torso A-zone cut in half so only the top section counts. I personally think most competition targets are too lenient.

    I've avoided linking the head and chest scoring zones in part because I want to force people to continue to work on hold-overs at various distances. I have gotten some flack for not having a spinal column hit count, but the tradeoff has been worth it for me.
    Agreed but I think you've got to be a little creative here, we're trying to establish a high accuracy standard, but at the same time you don't want to turn it into a bulls-eye competition.
    I don't mean to hijack your thread here. This has been a passion of mine for the past 6 years.
    No problem, we just want to make each match better than the last.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I had a goal of establishing six standards such that we would run each one 2 times per year and allow the shooters to track their own progress on the standards. Unfortunately I had a lot of offers of help but essentially ran the show alone for most of the time because it was hard to find someone that shared my vision for the events and even when people did step up I wound not liking their direction (like pushing competition, IMHO "quantity", over good fundamentals, IMHO "quality"). Just never had the time to set up to track these and establish what they would be. Obviously with the explosion of training drills of late there is no shortage of material now. 9-hole, 1-5, gear shift, etc.
    I think it's super important to give a way for the shooter to gauge their progress month to month. The number of competitors and the level of competition is going to vary, but you can always try to beat your own last effort.

    The CTE's we use are based on the drills Frankie used for his course of instruction at Bragg's Counter-Terrorism School (SFARTEC?). They're nothing you haven't seen before, but it give the shooter a chance to test himself at the same particular task across multiple matches.

    Plus, they're just flat-out fun. No tactics, no prohibitive classes or divisions, just straight up, unforgiving weapons manipulation drills

  9. #19
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    I was the tall goofy guy rockin' the M4C shirt!!!
    I really like shooting these matches with iron sights...does that make me weird? The scoring system is great, I finished second to SPANKIE..but didnt shoot any stages clean.( was close on the barricade stage though) I might run an optic next month.....what's up McGraw???

    Grant
    " Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun, you might meet'em both if you show up here not welcome son.." -Josh Thompson

  10. #20
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    Hey fyeguy, slightly ot perhaps... but possibly a member of your club?

    Saw him on I95 today.

    NC plates - GUNFYTER

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