What do you think of the new Army APFT?

[Travis B]

How long until MilitaryAthlete.com has a workout for the new APFT? I'm getting ready for OCS after I graduate in August and almost bought their (now outdated) APFT workout.

[cbyrd556]

Since you did ROTC, you'll understand why I am have issues with the current APFT.

You get some scrawny ass 19 year old female that gets a 300 APFT score. Oooh, Ahhh, she is so awesome. Throw a ruck on her ass, give her a weapon and she dies after a 3k road march. Then you have a 200lbs Iowa farm boy that carries 5 rucks, and finishes the full road march without breaking a sweat, but he only gets a 180 on his PT test.

In the field, who do you want with you? Did the PT test really prove who the more valuable soldier is? Who should get preference on the OML?

I know exactly what you mean, since I was the Kansas Farm Boy who got to carry the rucks for the guys and gals who couldn't hack it on the road marches, and I would get stuck with the M60, nothing quite like carrying 3 rucks and The Pig. The only time my size was praised. I did love seeing some of the Gazelles of the PT test struggle on the obstacle courses and road marches, since they werent in PT gear and running shoes. It sucked being the pack mule for my squad, but hey what is the big man good for if he can't pick up the slack for his mates.

I digress, back to the topic at hand. Do those of you that have seen combat feel that the Marines got it right with their new fitness test?

[SeriousStudent]

Agreed. IMHO, the current APFT does nothing to prove combat fitness. It was just a convenient way to measure performance for commanders evaluations and promotion boards. A 12 mile timed ruck march, immediately followed by a live fire assault course, using fire and maneuver, would be a better measurement of combat fitness. A rope climb and a combat swim, would round out the test.

This is really appealing to me, as a former grunt.

Would you make the live fire assault course the annual rifle/pistol qualification for the Soldier? Or give them a separate opportunity?

Like many others here, I watched guys that could hump an M-60 all day, with a spare barrel and ammo can strapped to their pack. They had a relatively low PFT score, but the only way you could stop them on a hump was to put a round in their brain housing group.

I think the Army is definitely taking a step in the right direction, and applaud them for doing so.

[variablebinary]

I know exactly what you mean, since I was the Kansas Farm Boy who got to carry the rucks for the guys and gals who couldn't hack it on the road marches, and I would get stuck with the M60, nothing quite like carrying 3 rucks and The Pig. The only time my size was praised. I did love seeing some of the Gazelles of the PT test struggle on the obstacle courses and road marches, since they werent in PT gear and running shoes. It sucked being the pack mule for my squad, but hey what is the big man good for if he can't pick up the slack for his mates.

I digress, back to the topic at hand. Do those of you that have seen combat feel that the Marines got it right with their new fitness test?

I have two SMP cadets in my unit. One is a 6'3" black guy from Texas that is literally built like Thor. Guy can't run worth a damn, and barely passes his PT run, but he can ruck like a machine, fight all day, shoot really well and gives the presence I would expect from an officer.

The other SMP is a 5'0" Asian female, that gets a 300+ PT score, but bitches about the ruck size and weight due to her stature, can't shoot worth shit, doesn't know dick about weapons and is generally useless.

Since the APFT is weighted more heavily than it needs to be she will have her pick or branches while the guy has to compete for less desirable slots.

The whole current APFT and the way it factors into a soldiers career is bullshit.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

I have two SMP cadets in my unit. One is a 6'3" black guy from Texas that is literally built like Thor. Guy can't run worth a damn, and barely passes his PT run, but he can ruck like a machine, fight all day, shoot really well and gives the presence I would expect from an officer.

The other SMP is a 5'0" Asian female, that gets a 300+ PT score, but bitches about the ruck size and weight due to her stature, can't shoot worth shit, doesn't know dick about weapons and is generally useless.

Since the APFT is weighted more heavily than it needs to be she will have her pick or branches while the guy has to compete for less desirable slots.

The whole current APFT and the way it factors into a soldiers career is bullshit.

I never looked at it like this it is so true. I know who I picked time and again.

[RogerinTPA]

This is really appealing to me, as a former grunt.

Would you make the live fire assault course the annual rifle/pistol qualification for the Soldier? Or give them a separate opportunity?

Like many others here, I watched guys that could hump an M-60 all day, with a spare barrel and ammo can strapped to their pack. They had a relatively low PFT score, but the only way you could stop them on a hump was to put a round in their brain housing group.

I think the Army is definitely taking a step in the right direction, and applaud them for doing so.

I'd make weapons quals separate, since I believe in practicing the fundamentals. The combat fitness quals would incorporate everything, to include getting effective hits on target and computer scored. Conducted twice a year for combat arms and once a year for support troops. Conducted in Quarters for Combat Arms. 1st Qtr, Weapons training and quals. 2nd Qtr, Combat Training with EIB testing, then Combat Quals, repeat every Qtr. Support folks every 6 months... half the training opportunity, but designed to reduce Jessica Lynch episodes from happening.

[RogerinTPA]

I know exactly what you mean, since I was the Kansas Farm Boy who got to carry the rucks for the guys and gals who couldn't hack it on the road marches, and I would get stuck with the M60, nothing quite like carrying 3 rucks and The Pig. The only time my size was praised. I did love seeing some of the Gazelles of the PT test struggle on the obstacle courses and road marches, since they werent in PT gear and running shoes. It sucked being the pack mule for my squad, but hey what is the big man good for if he can't pick up the slack for his mates.

I digress, back to the topic at hand. Do those of you that have seen combat feel that the Marines got it right with their new fitness test?

Agreed, but I have seen both sides of the coin. In one unit, all the big guys carried crew served weapons. In another, all the smaller guys fought over who got to carrying the 60's. Napoleon complex I suppose.

[R Moran]

It might be my Marine bias speaking,

It is.....

Not trying to be a smartass, but really, its what you know and are used to, probably good at it, so to you, it defines fitness.

"A 3 mile run for time is no joke", neither is a 2 mile run or 1.5 mile run....depends on the time. Back "in the day" I could do the Army 2 mile run, in about 11:30-12:00. We ran everyday, no less then 3 miles was the general rule, with most being 4-6mile runs. Unless we did a foot march for PT.

Never had to push yourself up? Do Soldiers not IMT anymore? I always equated push up, with pushing yourself up out of the prone, with full kit.
To the contrary, outside of O course and other contrived situations, I never had to pull myself up, much less in full kit 20 times. Or climb a rope for that matter. Ok, I had to pull my risers deep into my chest and hold it until I landed a few times

My organization is going thru much of this, on various levels. What is a fair assessment of physical fitness? What is tactically sound(for an O course),? etc.

Even experts disagree. Much like the last few "accuracy" threads, the bottom line is you need to be good at everything, strength, endurance and speed.

The various ideas about ruck marches, assault courses, etc etc are all neato, but unrealistic.
The Army has huge numbers of Soldiers, and various MOS's, all which require differing levels of fitness.
What is needed is a relatively simple way to measure basic fitness, that can be done fairly quickly, with little equipment, and in large numbers.
No "test" that needs to meet limitations like that is going to be perfect, same as the rifle "quals". This is also not unique to the Army or the military.

In the end, units will "train" to this test, just like the last, and the one before that, and the one before that, and the one that's coming.

...... Who are the two best commanders in the Army? The one that just left, and the one that coming....

I've been out for awhile, but...PT tests were an easy day of PT, when I was in. As noted we never ran, just 2 miles. We road marched regularly, O courses, drown proofing(I proved I could drown), and jumping was no easy task. The hardest part about EIB training was making sure grasped the charging handle of the M60 correctly
FWIW, at age 30, I could max the PT test on the 17-21 scale, & hump an M60, or an AG's ruck for any distance. Speed marches were my weakness( I'm short, sue me).

So, despite the suckiness of the system, if a unit and its leadership are doing its job properly, any PT test with realistic standards should be no problem. What would really help, is a better system of counseling and evaluating Soldiers of all ranks, so a PT score is not weighed so heavily. Or, a Squad leader can note, that while Pvt TentPeg can max the PT test, he cant hump a ruck.

Lately, at work, I've been joking about a "one shot/drill" qual.
Show up to the range, with full kit, and all assigned weapons, individual and "advanced". With no idea of what you'll need to do.

Load and make ready and..????

A single shot to the head, from the 7-3 on the move, with the pistol. Make it and your good, miss, and your out of a job.
Next time, One shot with the rifle at 300mtrs in X seconds.

You'd have no idea what weapon, or shot/drill you'll need to do, so....you'll have to be proficient in it all.

Do something like that for a PT test. Show up one time its a 3 mile run, another its pull ups, another a road march, another a 40 yard sprint, another a bench press, one chance, you make it or you don't, so you'll need to be good at everything.

By no means perfect, but it would be fun, to see.

I've been thinking about PT and shooting quals and standards alot lately, and two things seem certain:

There is no easy answer
Your not gonna please everyone

Hope all that made sense.

Bob

[R Moran]

Agreed, but I have seen both sides of the coin. In one unit, all the big guys carried crew served weapons. In another, all the smaller guys fought over who got to carrying the 60's. Napoleon complex I suppose.

Call it what you will, but when your not 5'10" you get treated different.

Until I went to Jumpmaster school, I thought the phrase "why do they always give the heaviest shit to the smallest guys" was part of JMPI.

My short ass, carrying a full ruck, M60 and ammo, has walked past alot of big tough, strong guys, carrying less.

Bob

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Call it what you will, but when your not 5'10" you get treated different.

Until I went to Jumpmaster school, I thought the phrase "why do they always give the heaviest shit to the smallest guys" was part of JMPI.

My short ass, carrying a full ruck, M60 and ammo, has walked past alot of big tough, strong guys, carrying less.

Bob

LOL Bob 5' 10" is to tall for a complex you must have other issues