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Thread: Status of NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4-pattern carbines

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Scenario for you. Company A orders barrels from a barrel manufacturer. They ask for barrels that meet the 11595E spec set forth by the US Govt. They get their barrels and list them as CMV. What they actually get is 4150 ORD. The CMV is a harder steel and is considered the best of the three steel options.

    When comparing company A to company B, it would appear that they are the same quality, but are not. Did company A intend to mislead the consumer? No. Did they still do it? Yes.

    There are also MANY loopholes with the whole HPT/MPI process that most companies just have no idea about, but list that the items as being done.
    *SOME* of these issues are addressed in the new format with the quantity of columns nearly doubled. however...

    While the chart will give you guidelines to follow, it is still up to the consumer to do their own research. There are some indications that you can key in on to figure out who is telling the truth and who isn't.
    ...this is exactly right. Even if the Chart is the fish and not the pole (and I'm not convinced it is) you still gotta eat the damn fish so you better understand what is in it.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892 View Post
    Rob?

    Are you still surveying for basic M4 pattern (IE: Colt 6920/21) carbines, or ''speciality carbines'' as well?

    IE: Next Generation Arms X7, SR-15, LMT MRP, etc.

    I will assume that piston carbines will be excluded due to lack of true milspec.
    I'm not going to respond to these kinds of questions again, but since this is the first time it's appeared in this thread, even though the answers are in the old thread repeatedly...

    No, I will not be comparing piston rifles. I know enough about them to know that I don't personally want/need one, and that's it. There is no standard for piston rifles, so comparing them would be extremely difficult with any kind of meaning.

    No, I will not be comparing rifles that are not M4 pattern carbines or reasonable facsimiles thereof. The only variation I'm allowing as of right now is for manufacturers that simply do not make a 16" barrel with carbine-length gas system and they may use their standard model (there will be notes in the Chart to who these manufacturers are). Rifles with full rail systems, stainless barrels, aftermarket stocks as standard, re-designed bolts and barrel extensions, proprietary parts, etc. are not covered herein. Which doesn't mean that I might not use the Chart as a guideline to begin to evaluate these other offerings, but only as a basis for the article or conversation.

  3. #113
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    I'm new to the AR15 platform and fairly new to shooting all together. The only prior experience I've had with a rifle is with my Marlin 60 (.22lr cal) that I've had for about a year. As a new shooter and researching the internet, "The Chart" kept popping up so I tracked it down and found this site.

    My first impression of "The Chart" was, "This is great, I'll just buy a rifle on the left side". As I looked into it more & realizing I knew almost nothing about the AR15, I began to appreciate the details/components listed down the far left side. As I researched the details I discovered what M4 feed ramps and a properly staked gas key were as a couple of examples. Being able to link to actual comparison pictures of what looks right and wrong and detailed explanations of the working of the components has helped educate me enormously.

    In summary, I think "The Chart" is a great educational tool and kudos to Rob for pulling it together. I look at it as sort of a "Cliff's Notes to the AR15" but I think you still need to read the whole book to fully appreciate the AR experience. I also think that it has moved manufacturers to produce to a higher standard because the buyers are now more informed. I believe this is beneficial to everyone buying and shooting the AR.
    Last edited by Vincent317; 03-08-11 at 12:34.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I'm not going to respond to these kinds of questions again, but since this is the first time it's appeared in this thread, even though the answers are in the old thread repeatedly...
    My computer froze when I tried to use the ''Search'' button.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    No, I will not be comparing piston rifles. I know enough about them to know that I don't personally want/need one, and that's it. There is no standard for piston rifles, so comparing them would be extremely difficult with any kind of meaning.
    Thank you for clearing that up. That asked - I have no interest in them anymore either. But I'd rather it be asked now, than repeated later. I'll take the bashing for introducing them to the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    No, I will not be comparing rifles that are not M4 pattern carbines or reasonable facsimiles thereof. The only variation I'm allowing as of right now is for manufacturers that simply do not make a 16" barrel with carbine-length gas system and they may use their standard model (there will be notes in the Chart to who these manufacturers are). Rifles with full rail systems, stainless barrels, aftermarket stocks as standard, re-designed bolts and barrel extensions, proprietary parts, etc. are not covered herein. Which doesn't mean that I might not use the Chart as a guideline to begin to evaluate these other offerings, but only as a basis for the article or conversation.
    To the underlined quote:

    Does that include only midlength, or otherwise ''enhanced'' guns?

    The reason I ask, is because I can't think of a company who produces 16.1'' barrelled guns with midlength system - that doesn't also have a CAR gas system available. And if they don't, then they usually have aftermarket stocks as standard, proprietary parts, and full rail systems, which would exclude them from your chart.
    We miss you, AC.
    We miss you, ToddG.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892 View Post
    The reason I ask, is because I can't think of a company who produces 16.1'' barrelled guns with midlength system - that doesn't also have a CAR gas system available. And if they don't, then they usually have aftermarket stocks as standard, proprietary parts, and full rail systems, which would exclude them from your chart.
    Stay tuned.

  6. #116
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    In regards to reasons people want the return of the manufacturers to The Chart, I didn't notice the reason I like having it. I give copies of the Chart out to local gun shops and people who ask questions about AR-15s. I have steered a number of people in the right direction, and on a couple occasions have seen people who I gave a copy picking up their new "left-of-chart" rifle when they were considering a "right-of-chart" rifle when I talked to them initially. It's a good feeling that one more quality rifle is in the hands of someone who didn't know any better a month before, and I didn't even do the work on the Chart, just help explain a couple things to them. I also explain that the features listed are not the end-all be-all, but an indicator of quality and attention to detail.

    Thanks Rob for all your hard work. I appreciate it a lot, and the people who I've introduced the Chart to have certainly been appreciative.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I started this thread to:
    1. Keep people updated on the progress of the new version
    2. Get feedback on my theory that the Chart fosters laziness
    3. Get an idea of how people have used the Chart to help themselves or others
    I used the list as an easily readable reference for finding what the individual parts of a quality AR need to consist of. I didn't even look at the tabs to find the different manufacturers. I read a bunch on this site to find out what manufacturers kept popping up.

    I made the conscious decision to not 'fix' my BM, but rather to get out of it and get something made correctly from the get-go.

    The chart didn't foster laziness in me. It was a wake-up call. I've been 'blessed' in that I've been issued a true TDP-spec Colt rifle thanks to Uncle Sam. THAT fostered laziness in my own personal rifle.

    My branch of service certainly does a dis-service to the true use of a fighting carbine, especially to my particular job.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I started this thread to:
    1. Keep people updated on the progress of the new version
    2. Get feedback on my theory that the Chart fosters laziness
    3. Get an idea of how people have used the Chart to help themselves or others

    Rob, your original chart was a great help when I began researching the M4 I wanted. It was one of the first Stickies I read when I joined the site. Before that I had no clue as to what a true SPEC weapon was and how the various brands stood up to those specs. I, probably like many others, thought that RRA, DPMS, BM and others were top of the line. Without the chart I would still have thought that for a while. Just before you took it down I showed my buddy the chart and explained to him that the weapon he was considering wasn't really what he thought it was. Let's just say that he had an eye opening experience that day.

    You are not providing the fish to the fisherman. More like the bait to catch the fish.

  9. #119
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    Looking foward to the new chart Rob. I hope you can get more of the newer builders out there to provide date.

    So will chromelined and Melonited barrels be on sperate lines?

    ffh

  10. #120
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    Thumbs up

    I think the chart is a great and informative tool and I highly anticipate the newest version.
    Between two groups of people who want to make inconsistent kinds of worlds, I see no remedy but force. - Oliver Wendell Holmes.

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