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Thread: Status of NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4-pattern carbines

  1. #171
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    There are existing threads for talking about HPT/MPI. That discussion should be taken to one of those. I'm partial to this one.

    On topic...
    What this discussion of HPT reveals is that some people are too smart for their own good. It has been a great example of projecting instead of reading and absorbing. It happens all the time with the Chart, almost since inception. It's why I stopped trying to rank things. If someone truly believes that HPT and MPI are a waste and would rather save the cost, the Chart gives you the information to make that choice.

    As Bob says above "WE WILL HAVE THE DATA TO MAKE THE CHOICE." which is entirely the point.

    If ya'll wanna go revive the HPT thread linked to above, I'll get into the other minutia.

  2. #172
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    Sorry for the tangent, Rob
    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    A discussion involving the gayest lubrication, pinkies, Popsicles, hammering balls and dripping guns, all in the same thread...
    Quote Originally Posted by JSantoro View Post
    I like living a life in which beer is an appetizer, the floor is just another shelf, and the world is my urinal.

  3. #173
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    Since robs voice carries more weight than mine, the last paragraph of his linked thread first post is what I was refering to. If we could get any further details of non standard testing it would be instructional.

    If anyone is interested in what details of such a plan or how to evaluate one, feel free to pm me.

  4. #174
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    I would really like to thank Rob S on here for the great info that he found and put into his spread sheets. He really put together a great setup to help anyone out. I found his spread sheet on northwestfirearms.com and can't wait to see the updated one.

    I did a lot of research before I bought my gun and found that going to the local gun dealers were not very informative. Most did not know what guns they had or what was in them. I also found most of the guns at the dealer where all base model gun's with nothing in them for top dollar. If it was not for Rob's time put into this material I probably would have ended up with a low quality gun for the same price. Thanks Rob!!
    "The best engine in the world is the vagina. It can be started with one finger. It is self-lubricating. It takes any size piston. And it changes its own oil every four weeks. It is only a pity that the management system is so ****ing temperamental.."


  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXBob View Post
    That is the point of the Failure Mode Analysis. For me its fairly easy. When my parts fail they don't cause injury.
    I've heard of KaBooms, but mostly for Glocks/Handguns/etc... I'm not trying to downplay, I really just don't have the info--but I bet these companies do!

    The important thing is there are 2 areas to be explored: (1) Failure rate and (2) Failure Mode. Just because you have a low failure rate, if your failure mode is catastrophic you have to be much much tighter on your failure rate.

    That's why I added my caution in there about how the parts fail and what they do cause. If it can be shown that a failure, even a single one would cause serious injury, well then test every part. Airline failure parts are 100X less (or more) than what I have, and yet I get away with sampling all the time. They can't even have a single failure and are X-raying parts even after they leave the factory.

    If you are out a $300 barrel or $1000 rifle, that's one thing.

    Lose a hand or an eye (or a life) that's another. That's why it is important to understand what happens if a barrel passes on that would have been caught. I'm just not familiar enough to say what would happen. Sounds like a few people here are so feel free to comment. As I said, playing a bit of devil's advocate. The more I study this the more I'm not liking batch testing.

    Failure rates in airlines are around PPM and they still test every one. Like I said, 1 part fails and you have death and destruction. The same could be said for a rifle. You won't have 100 dead, but 1 injury is enough to get lawyers involved.
    Yes, but in this particular case of bolts failing, it may not cause any harm only that if you depended on that round you tried to fire before you realized the bolt failed to save your life, that failure may have cost you yours. If you use your rifle to defend your life then you need to take luck out of the equation as much as possible. so, even if my bolt failing may not cause me direct harm, the failure of the rifle may cost me my life. That's the difference here.

  6. #176
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    I too am looking forward to the new chart.

    John!
    Last edited by johns961; 03-23-11 at 21:42.

  7. #177
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    I'm glad to see a new chart being created.

    And to the bean-counters:

    I'm glad to see companies less interested in maximizing profit and more interested in maximizing quality, even if it means a bolt costs 23% more to the consumer and the manufacture can't sell as many as the company interested in counting beans. "The Chart" is making companies improve the platform we all enjoy. Thanks Rob!

    And remember guys, the platform includes the shooter. Buying an expensive rifle won't make you a high-speed, secret squirrel. The rifle is only as good as the shooter. Having a second-tier rifle doesn't mean you're a worthless human being or any less good of a shooter. "The Chart" is just a guide of the overall quality and an outline of which features are different, giving the consumer a way to rank which rifle suits his or her needs best.

    The trigger doesn't squeeze itself, even on an SR-15.

  8. #178
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    The first ar-15's I bought was back in the early 80's. They are Colt's SP1's. I still have them. Then I took time out for twenty years to raise my two kids. They are now gone and making their own way in the world. Wanting a new AR I found the chart thru this website last month.
    Using it I went to the Tampa gun show March 5th with the idea of maybe purchasing a new rifle. I found the Tactical Weapons Solutions booth with their rifles and copies of the chart with their product on it.
    I purchase one of their rifles after talking to them. They seem well made
    and the people were very friendly. This week I find out they used business tactic's that at best were unethical. I feel somewhat snookered. Oh well. I sure hope someone there just made a bad business decision in abusing the chart for personal gain and will come clean about. I really liked the people and I think my rifle is well made.
    I guess time will tell.

    John!

  9. #179
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    I also bought my first AR before I knew about the chart and based my purchase on what the cops I work with told me now that i know about the chart I can tell that most of them know nothing.

  10. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
    I strongly disagree. There are few people who have the knowledge base to identify everything you have listed in the chart, and be able to contact a manufacturer and ask for clarification. I think people who are heavily involved in the weapon community (and I don't mean gun boards) can forget the world of new people, and the users who are not dialed in to the specifics.

    Using the fishing analogy, I think the "chart" is teaching people to fish, not giving them the fish for free. If its not giving people information and teaching them whats important, or at least establishing a baseline, whats the point in it?
    I have to agree with Stickman. The analogy of fishing isn't really working here. The Chart allowed people to make more discriminating choices, and to learn more about the rifles. You're correct in your positing that it's also used to bash others and in puerile efforts at self-justification, but it's a valuable tool that allowed me to demonstrate to friends who shopped for carbines why one met certain standards and another didn't, and why a Colt cost more than a Bushmaster, and why it was worth it or not.

    It worked like an encyclopedia summary page, and the additional information (that's still up) is very useful in deeper understanding.

    But, it's like buying a television....I don't need to understand how the bits and pieces are transmitted (although I did see Charlie and the Chocolate Factory), but I do want to know which one meets certain standards before I purchase one so I'm making the best expenditure possible.

    I personally do appreciate the work you do, as well as the replies to pm's in the past, as your insights have helped me with information gathering prior to decision making.

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