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Thread: Status of NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4-pattern carbines

  1. #241
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    There is a new company that's trying to make some smoke called Accurate Armory http://www.accuratearmory.com/

    You may want to include them in your new chart. They claim to be milspec and on par with LMT,BCM, etc... Or else we'll see more debate on them in the near future. Thanks for taking the time to bring some of these companies to light on what they really have.

  2. #242
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    We are aware of them. Someone that works for them posted a review of a rifle here.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6933 View Post
    We are aware of them. Someone that works for them posted a review of a rifle here.
    Yeah, that's usually known as a "press release"...

    ~Dan

  4. #244
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    The chart was a big, big help for this newbie, and I have to thank Jon Consiglio for pointing me in the right direction. I have a habit of buying the best of the best in the price range that I'm willing to spend so I put a lot of research into what I'm buying. This spreadsheet was a Godsend to me because it put all of the requirements onto one page where I could see what I needed to see. The two items missing (parkering under the front sight and taper pins) aren't nearly as important to me and can be fixed later if I so choose.

    Items like BCG testing, peening, etc... are important to me from a quality standpoint and mean as much as the quality I would expect from one of my 1911's, my clays guns or one of my hunting guns. You get what you pay for and really dislike buying something which has a greater likelihood of failing at the worst possible moment. It's not all about survival scenarios. It will most likely involve a hunt or some shooting event which was wasted because of a snapped firing pin, locked up action, or some other failure which might have been avoided had I bought the best possible product in the first place and then properly maintained that product from day 1.

  5. #245
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    It is information. What YOU choose to do with it is your decision.
    "Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by danco View Post
    Yeah, that's usually known as a "press release"...

    ~Dan
    Oh one of those huh? lol

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s
    …..I'm enjoying the discussion either way. It's interesting, however surprising, to see how many people still want to have the document available.…..Interestingly, in an article last year in a print magazine I talked about "your AR ain't milspec" and listed some of the more common reasons this was true. In the online comments section of the publisher's website, someone asked for a way to know which manufacturers meet which criteria. Guy was asking for the Chart and he didn't even know it.
    There are few people who have the knowledge base to identify everything you have listed in the chart, and be able to contact a manufacturer and ask for clarification. I think people who are heavily involved in the weapon community (and I don't mean gun boards) can forget the world of new people, and the users who are not dialed in to the specifics.
    Using the fishing analogy, I think the "chart" is teaching people to fish, not giving them the fish for free. If its not giving people information and teaching them whats important, or at least establishing a baseline, whats the point in it?
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    Rob, your original chart was a great help when I began researching the M4 I wanted. It was one of the first Stickies I read when I joined the site. Before that I had no clue as to what a true SPEC weapon was and how the various brands stood up to those spec…. You are not providing the fish to the fisherman. More like the bait to catch the fish.
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    I see "The Chart" as a very valuable set of training wheels for a new AR owner…..
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    The gun store where I work one night a week now has a copy of the old one and uses it to inform staff and customers. It is used as a tool by folks like me who can't remember all of it and is a good visual tutoring aid for those who would be overwhelmed with all of the info. It is also more useful than me telling them to "Just buy a Colt."…
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    The way I see it is, a lot of people don't get a chance to hold many of these brands before they can make a purchase. Where I live most of the stores carry RRA, Bushmaster, and Colt, and if you ask the people at the gun shops they'll tell you the RRA is just as good as the Colt.
    If I hadn't found this site I most likely would never had heard of brands like Noveske, Daniel Defense, and Bravo Company, but thanks to this site and the chart I now own a Noveske rather than one of the many RRA's that were being pushed on me…..
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    I've referred the Chart to dozens of people but never without telling them (more than once) that the most important part of the whole Chart is the Explanation section. I tell them to ignore the Chart section and to read the Descriptions, follow the LINKS, and then after they have a decent understanding...look at the Chart.
    To just show that a Colt is better than a Oly doesn't do a whole lot of good for the individual but showing him "WHY" the Colt is better, that is teaching a person how to fish. So, the Explantions teach how to fish and the Chart's graphics just make the results obvious…..
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    I appreciate the opinions of members here. When I first joined this site I could see the difference in demeanor among the senior members.
    I have a law enforcement background, and call it instinct or whatever, you can tell when people are serious operators and not just hobbyists….
    As for the chart, I do have to respectfully disagree with the characterization of the chart user being "lazy." Not everyone can research a subject to the same depth{as rob_s,}and that's why I appreciate the chart. I am not sure that any amount of in-depth research on my part would have told me who batch tests components and who tests each and every one. When makers {like Bushmaster}would have you believe that they are the equal of makers who have provided complete weapons to the military (when clearly they are not), it's good to have someone who has the industry contacts who can cut through the propaganda put all the correct information in one concise form…..
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    ….I guess it also stands to reason that for the person who would not be subjecting their AR to long, continued, heavy use, there's a good chance they would never have any problems with a lower tier gun that is lightly used. Not everyone can or will shoot their AR heavily, for a variety of reasons….I've always believed it's wise to buy the highest quality you can swing as it pays you back in performance and in marketability & value on resale. But obviously, many don't subscribe to that view and feel that OK is good enough.
    It's great to be able to understand the differences.
    Well that got a little out of hand. And yes, I pretty much cut, pasted and rephrased at will. Sorry…

    Onward-
    Maybe I’m late to the party as usual, and this is past it's “use by” date, but basically, the above pretty much says it all.

    For folks who actually want to learn, instead of just getting a handout, it’s an indispensable tool that puts a lot of hard to find/understand information into one simple, effective overview. And whether it was intended this way or not, the Chart has pretty much taken the ‘function over form/quality over quantity/buy once, cry once’ philosophy of (if you want to go this far) M4C itself, and distilled it into one document of awesomeness.
    Almost like the Ten Commandments, or the pirate Code of Morgan and Bart.
    Of course you’re going to get a few lazies who will bastardize the whole thing, but at that point I think it’s out of everyone’s hands- it’s going to be up to the people that read it whether they get contaminated by the bad apples, or throw them out.

    I know when I started getting into shooting/firearms, 99% of my “facts” were from magazines and TV shows. And after a couple years of reviews and information that even I could tell were bull, it was getting really old. A rotten experience when shopping for a red dot was pretty much the last straw- I started hunting for somewhere to get some real life info, and I landed here. After some brief searching, I found the “Oops I bought a…” thread. Which lead me to the chart, which lead me to the “Knowledge Base” sticky, the subsequent reading of a large portion of this site, and the asking of many questions, which enabled me to make much better informed decisions about my current crop of firearms.
    And I’m not one to just go madly chasing after anything anyone says. But, as was said previously, from the way the information was presented and the demeanor of the members, you could tell this wasn’t just another bunch of net-commando wannabes.

    Anyway, my point is this.
    So I bought a top tier gun. Did that make me a super tacti-awesome ninja? No. I still suck. As stated it’s the indian, not the arrow.
    No amount of reading, however informed is going to change that.
    But as also stated, it’s about teaching people to fish. And sometimes that involves giving them a rod and some lures, and pointing them to a couple good spots. And IMHO, the chart does this perfectly.
    Rob, even if it seems like you're feeding a never ending cycle of stupidity, there's still a lot of folks out here that see otherwise.

    Alright, I’m done preachin to the choir.
    Last edited by Jellybean; 04-21-11 at 21:36.
    "Once we get some iron in our souls, we'll get some iron in our hands..."

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  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurodriver View Post
    Gents, lets be sure to remember that regardless whether or not there is a new and updated chart in the works we will still have to contend with

    "Mil-spec just means it was the lowest bidder. GARBAGE"
    Yes and no. There are standards so no matter if you are the low bidder or not on a contract, you still have to follow the TDP and meet the standard. If you choose to not make any money doing it, that is on you.

    Something to keep in mind as well is that if Mil-Spec means the LOWEST acceptable quality for a fighting gun, then what does that say about the companies that don't come close to the mil-standard?


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 04-21-11 at 21:46.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by irocracer89 View Post
    That's the problem with the site, always pushing the left side chart. Unless you are in military, law enforcement, maybe boarder police, why would you need a 100% mil-spec weapon? Both of mine are not close to the 100% However they due currently meet my operational needs, and function when needed..I currently have no particular brand, most will send rounds down range.

    Rob I do have your first chart, and thanks for the work you put into.
    Can you ID the people that are "pushing" the left side of the chart?

    For whatever reason, people seem to really miss this key point about mil-spec guns. They cost the same as the cheaper AR's! So why not buy the better gun?????????????????????????????????????

    I also enjoy when someone tries to tell me what I "need."

    The better the materials, the better the testing, the better the installation, the better the weapon. Can a cheap AR run as good as a Colt? Sure. Are the odds stacked in favor of mil-spec gun? Yes they are. This is what people have to grasp.


    C4

  10. #250
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    Also if my previous post is in the wrong place I do apologize. In regard to the chart, I did find the information provided to be most helpful. I found a copy of the old chart and the information provided helped me decide to cancel my Del-Ton order and go ahead and spend more and build my own AR. In fact, very little more for a BCM upper, LMT bcg, and a DD LPK and stock assy. That combo may not be quite the ideal one, but based on what I have read, should be better than my previous plan.

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