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Thread: Status of NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4-pattern carbines

  1. #131
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    When buying a civilian legal M4, we can demand an M4 that meets the all the specs as laid out by the chart. When buying another variant of the AR, that's not practical. The chart only shows the specs for one specific AR variant.

    For example, it doesn't make sense to insist on an F height front sight block if the rails will cover the gas block.

    Adherence to the chart does not guarantee a quality product, nor does deviation from the chart mean the AR will be garbage. The chart says barrels are to be made from a steel alloy as specified by MIL-B-11595E and be chrome lined. Yet uppers assembled by BCM with stainless steel barrels without chrome lining are considered to be among the best available. KAC, as I understand it, has done away with HPT and they do not stake castle nuts.

    This isn't to say the chart isn't useful. One will be served well choosing a civilian M4 based on the information found in therein. But it's just one tool. Like the old saying goes, if the only tool in your kit is a hammer, every problem will start to look like a nail
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  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    When buying a civilian legal M4, we can demand an M4 that meets the all the specs as laid out by the chart. When buying another variant of the AR, that's not practical. The chart only shows the specs for one specific AR variant.

    For example, it doesn't make sense to insist on an F height front sight block if the rails will cover the gas block.

    Adherence to the chart does not guarantee a quality product, nor does deviation from the chart mean the AR will be garbage. The chart says barrels are to be made from a steel alloy as specified by MIL-B-11595E and be chrome lined. Yet uppers assembled by BCM with stainless steel barrels without chrome lining are considered to be among the best available. KAC, as I understand it, has done away with HPT and they do not stake castle nuts.

    This isn't to say the chart isn't useful. One will be served well choosing a civilian M4 based on the information found in therein. But it's just one tool. Like the old saying goes, if the only tool in your kit is a hammer, every problem will start to look like a nail
    I don't think that the chart was supposed to be the end all be all of AR specifications, just information. Some people made it into a guideline all on their own. Personally, I think that there are parts of the TDP that can be foregone for certain purposes or have been superseded. For example: IMO batch testing barrels and BCGs is perfectly acceptable, & etching and chroming barrels is a poor practice. But me calling out the TDP and whether or not what the government wants should be what everyone else should aspire to is probably another controversial thread altogether.

  3. #133
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    I agree. You have to use common sense. If you want a stainless steel barrel, or if you don't care that the front sight pins are not tapered, go for it. I think the chart was meant to be a starting point. You still have to make up your own mind.
    Last edited by Doc Safari; 03-10-11 at 17:04.

  4. #134
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    I'm glad you have decided to go ahead with the chart. I think that your chart will be more a service than dis-service to people out there trying to decide which brand of AR to choose. I understand that you dislike those lazy people out there, but, it is a little hard for newbies to muddle through all the crap out there at first, so it does help to have people such as yourself to help them along. You're like a saint, or something, holmes!

  5. #135
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    Hey Rob,

    Another thank you note here for all the work you've done. The chart was the first thing I found after starting research a few weeks ago for my first keeper AR. I've bought and sold more than a few, never really knowing much about them. Mostly doing this to fund or trade for U.S. WWII arms and related. I decided I wanted one to shoot and keep, and I like quality guns no matter the platform. I knew there had to be differences, but had no clue as to how much different they were. Without the info in the chart I wouldn't have known the questions to ask. When I understood what the chart presented, my choice was clear. It allowed me to make an informed decision and for that I am truly grateful.

    Could I be served well with the lower end? Sure, but not after understanding all I know now as I would never be happy. Aside from wanting quality, having a more "mil spec" gun is to me is very much akin to having a completely G.I. M1 or M1 Carbine. You could make the argument that I am a bit snobbish, but thats what I like.

    In my view, you kept me from being ripped off by paying the same or more dollars for a rifle with a bunch of cut corners. The chart is fantastic. Educational, and very informative, and again I am very appreciative that I got to peruse it. Because of it, I am ordering a BCM as soon as I can decide which version I want, I and I have no doubt I will have made a good choice.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    While understandable, why doesn't the requester simply examine a sample for the obvious, and ask questions of the manufacturer about the less obvious?
    This would be nice, but many dealers simply do not carry a diverse range of brands. In fact half the time I am looking for a gun I have no way of putting my hands on it till I order the thing and it arrives. In my local area there are two places to buy guns. One is a chain sporting goods store that only carries DPMS, and the other is a small Mom and Pop store that carries DPMS, and Armalites I believe. So in my case taking a look at any other brand would require me to special order it at my expense and purchase the gun basically sight unseen. Given that I live in a relatively big city and face this issue I can imagine that I am not alone. I am not trying to bust your balls or anything, just providing a potential answer to the question you posed.

  7. #137
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    del-ton??

    Quote Originally Posted by RP88 View Post
    ^that brings me to a semi-irrelevant question.

    Rob: did you ever poll Del-Ton by chance? I actually e-mailed them myself awhile ago and they happily shared with me a few answers to some general questions.

    Just wanted to say...Del-Ton's M4 (with appropriate optional upgrades) are a lot better than many people think, especially for the price.
    all i will said smoke and mirror crap -they are using mossburg barrels - had to R&R of them in friend's ars so far .....bad assemblers !!!

  8. #138
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    Rob, the chart was a huge help for me. I don't think I was lazy in using the chart, nor did I use it for verification of "my" brand. Most newbies don't know where to look or what questions to ask. All the mainstream magazines praise the BM's, heck some praise the OLY. Luckily, I found this sight and read the stickies before making any big mistakes. Steel usage and batch testing is not something the first time buyer thinks about, let alone has the resources to find out. I know my mistakes (waste of money) has no direct effect on you, however, it means a lot to the sport. Maybe the guns in the sporting goods store will start putting more into there rifles and less into marketing.

  9. #139
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    The chart was a wonderful help to me when I bought my first ARs. Like most AR newbies I had no idea where to begin as a first time buyer of an AR. I wound up going with BCM and I'm confident that it was a good choice. Thanks to Rob for that!

    But I have to wonder... there must be a bazillion shrubmasters and such other brands in widespread and frequent use in law enforcement. These guns must be providing reasonably good utility and service to such serious minded professionals, no? Are LE agencies truly at noteworthy risk by depending on non-tier one brands?
    Last edited by DHart; 03-13-11 at 20:56.

  10. #140
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    Are LE agencies truly at noteworthy risk by depending on non-tier one brands?
    Statistically...no. Odds of having to use an AR are slim (but it happens, happened in Portland a few months ago.) If it is used, very few rounds are fired (3-4 rds I believe in the Portland incident). So, what are the odds of a 2nd (or 3rd) tier rifle going down in a 2-6 shot incident? Slim...

    I'm not saying quality isn't worth it (it is), just that LE don't shoot enough in training or the field to really expose the shortcomings of these carbines except for big city SWAT teams. Even then, the guns go down in training, armorers get them back up.
    "The world's a dangerous place – we can help." -www.portlandfirearmtraining.com
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