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Thread: Status of NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4-pattern carbines

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    But I have to wonder... there must be a bazillion shrubmasters and such other brands in widespread and frequent use in law enforcement. These guns must be providing reasonably good utility and service to such serious minded professionals, no? Are LE agencies truly at noteworthy risk by depending on non-tier one brands?
    What you typically see in LE circles are no different than non-LE. Owners are different than shooters, and everything is "flawless" until you start to actually use it. There is plenty of documentation of various agencies being ecstatically happy with their xyz brand right up until they get them out and start beating on them.

    To be sure, there are agencies nationwide that have no such problems, but it's interesting to see those that do and the commonalities between them.

    It may be helpful to remember the point of the original chart, which was to try to understand why certain brands had repeated problems reported from various training venues. As it turns out, the problem brands also were missing a large quantity of Xs.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    What you typically see in LE circles are no different than non-LE. Owners are different than shooters, and everything is "flawless" until you start to actually use it. There is plenty of documentation of various agencies being ecstatically happy with their xyz brand right up until they get them out and start beating on them.

    To be sure, there are agencies nationwide that have no such problems, but it's interesting to see those that do and the commonalities between them.

    It may be helpful to remember the point of the original chart, which was to try to understand why certain brands had repeated problems reported from various training venues. As it turns out, the problem brands also were missing a large quantity of Xs.
    My Shrubmeister let me down early (if I haven't already stated)
    I had a few failures to eject/extract. Installing a D-fender cured that. Then my barrel became lose in the upper, I installed a YHM free float hand guard and torqued it down, barrel is now solid. I replaced the front sight blade, too short so Bushmaster sent me a longer blade n/c. Since debugging my Shrubmeister it runs to my satisfaction.

  3. #143
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    Yes, it seems likely that when problems occur that they would tend to be with the brands which fell short of earning "x"s. And also that with a few modifications, the lower tier guns may give excellent service.

    I guess it also stands to reason that for the person who would not be subjecting their AR to long, continued, heavy use, there's a good chance they would never have any problems with a lower tier gun that is lightly used. Not everyone can or will shoot their AR heavily, for a variety of reasons.

    There probably are a lot of people who are perfectly content with the lower tier/lower priced options. I guess most of those people are closer to being owners, rather than shooters. Of course the same applies to many, perhaps the majority, who buy pistols, shotguns, etc.

    I've always believed it's wise to buy the highest quality you can swing as it pays you back in performance and in marketability & value on resale. But obviously, many don't subscribe to that view and feel that OK is good enough.

    It's great to be able to understand the differences.
    Last edited by DHart; 03-15-11 at 01:42.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Because, and maybe this is the cynic in me, those that know don't need it, and those that need it are too lazy to get it themselves?

    If I"m not catering to the lazy, what am I accomplishing?
    What are you accomplishing? Leading. Teaching. There's no dishonor in leading those of us who are just beginning our education on this topic.

  5. #145
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    The question arose elsewhere of rankings, or sub-dividing the Chart, etc. I won't be doing this. For anyone with questions about why you can reference the original Chart thread.

    I don't want to tip my hand too much guys, but I do have a plan as to how I'm populating the Chart, and where it goes from there. Hopefully I at least have enough confidence from you guys to get it to that point, and from the responses in this thread it looks like I do.

    Thanks again to everyone for their support.

  6. #146
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    I would charge for it Rob.... "They make an app for that"... That's what I would do if it was me, but what do I know I'm just a business guy.

  7. #147
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    At the beginning of the year I was dead set on building an AR from a certain manufacturer. Their site said everything I wanted to hear, so I was pumped. I bought a lower then waited to buy the rest.

    Around the end of Feb. (still researching them) I found this site explaining what hpt, mpi, staked gas keys etc. were and why they do it. The company I was into cut corners to save cost and sugar coated what they sell. Since here, I have planned my build using quality parts while reading alot of information. I just need to buy an upper.

    I never did see the chart, but the info where the chart was is very informative. I can see how the chart could be useful, as long as people realize why certain companies do things to seperate themselves from others. That is alot of work in information gathering, I hope people respect the chart/producer and don't just "steal fish".

    Thank you Rob, I respect what your doing.

  8. #148
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    This is in no way related to anything anyone has posted in this thread, but...

    Several posts elsewhere on this site and on other sites really start to grate on my nerves. Just because you bought from the "left side" of the old Chart, and someone else bought from the right, does not make you any more of a secret squirrel, super-badass, ninja freak. If you bought that gun from the left side and stuck the thing in the safe after gluing all the latest internut bling to it, you're as much of a douche as the guy that insists his Oly Plinker is just as good as a Colt 6920. If you use that purchase to claim superiority over that guy, you're more of a douche. If you use the Chart to bash him in the head, you're king douche.

    It is the indian, and not the arrow. A better arrow is a better arrow, but if the indian never uses it, the arrow might as well be made of licorice.

  9. #149
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    Great point Rob!
    I have a ton more respect for the person who knows how to runs their tool well, regardless of the make of the tool, than the person who pruchases the most expensive tool and can't tell one end from the other. The braggert is the one who usually is ignored and shown contempt.

    Thanks for the work you are putting into this project! The original chart really gave me an education concerning the quality and care M4 manufacturers may or may not put into their products. With out it I wouldbn't have been able to make the decisions I did.

  10. #150
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    Everytime one of the lowers that Grant's built me showed up at my local gun shop (which is regarded as one of the best in the area) they stare at it with glazed over eyes and said that they've never heard of that brand before. I asked them once if they could get a BCM and they told me that they've never heard of them and that they only carry "proven" brands like Bushmaster and Rock River......but to their defense, I did notice the last time I was in there that they had a few DD's hanging on the wall, so they're slowly turning the corner . I realize that some of the more commercial brands are more than enough for a lot of people, it does makes me laugh when others put the big "name brand" weapons on a pedestal in an attempt slam the ones that "they've never heard of". The only people I ever even make recommendations to are close friends that I know are going to be using their rifles and are about to spend more on some junk at the local gun store than they would on something a lot better.

    If it wasn't for me stumbling across the "chart" I would have never known what to even look for in a quality made weapon. I didn't necessarily use it to choose what brands I went with, but I damn sure used pieces and parts of it to make sure that the brands I chose were of good quality.

    But even starting out with my old Bushmaster, I used the chart for ideas on how to make it a little more dependable, which forced me to learn how to do my own staking, and tearing into it to check what it had or didn't have.
    Last edited by 01tundra; 03-16-11 at 08:46.

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