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Thread: Status of NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4-pattern carbines

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    If you use that purchase to claim superiority over that guy, you're more of a douche. If you use the Chart to bash him in the head, you're king douche.

    It is the indian, and not the arrow. A better arrow is a better arrow, but if the indian never uses it, the arrow might as well be made of licorice.
    Quantitatively has actually nothing to do with the chart but is key to dealing with real people. Dogpiling or asking sarcastic questions is generally counterproductive. No one is more convinced about any belief than the one they currently have.

    Also end use is always used as a defense but it can be a legitimate reason. Additional cost for features of limited benefit is just as inefficient as not determining what constitutes a good cost value purchase.

  2. #152
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    Outstanding Rob, I am going to go read the updated version right now.
    Paul A. Hotaling
    Alias Training & Security Services, LLC
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    This is in no way related to anything anyone has posted in this thread, but...

    Several posts elsewhere on this site and on other sites really start to grate on my nerves. Just because you bought from the "left side" of the old Chart, and someone else bought from the right, does not make you any more of a secret squirrel, super-badass, ninja freak. If you bought that gun from the left side and stuck the thing in the safe after gluing all the latest internut bling to it, you're as much of a douche as the guy that insists his Oly Plinker is just as good as a Colt 6920. If you use that purchase to claim superiority over that guy, you're more of a douche. If you use the Chart to bash him in the head, you're king douche.

    It is the indian, and not the arrow. A better arrow is a better arrow, but if the indian never uses it, the arrow might as well be made of licorice.
    I think you're right that too much emphasis is placed on the quality of the equipment, but with people standing their ground to insist that their BM, DPMS, or whatever is better than a top tier weapon, I think that people who are more knowledgeable get sucked into wanting to verbally beat some sense into them. It's a bad habit arguably but I think it comes from sincerely wanting to guide someone to spend their money on quality, and not simple snobbery. (I hope I'm right).

    Having said that, you are absolutely right that having the best firearm that money can buy doesn't make you a gunfighter anymore than having a pair of Nike shoes makes you an athlete.
    Last edited by Doc Safari; 03-16-11 at 11:12.

  4. #154
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    I'd like to add my .02 on The Chart.

    I enjoy taking new shooters to the range. When they shoot my rifles, they get excited about owning one themselves, and want to know what to get, where to get it and how much to spend.

    I show them the chart to explain why certain models may be more worth the money, and why they should consider spending a bit more to make a substantial upgrade in quality. Otherwise, I get an email saying "Hey, I found a guy selling a used Olympic Arms AR-15. He wants $600 for it. Should I get it? It's just as good as ____, right?"

    If I can convince them to expand their budget a little at first, they will save money in the long run by not replacing parts or just buying another gun altogether.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01tundra View Post
    Everytime one of the lowers that Grant's built me showed up at my local gun shop (which is regarded as one of the best in the area) they stare at it with glazed over eyes and said that they've never heard of that brand before.
    I experience the same thing at the indoor range I often shoot at. It's a military range on USMC compound here and quite often other shooters are young Marines. When they ask what I'm shooting and I tell them BCM or Bravo Company, their eyes glaze over like I started speaking a foreign language.
    Last edited by Stan9106; 03-16-11 at 15:35.

  6. #156
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    I've stopped trying to "talk" someone out of or into a particular gun. I will give them straight scoop if they ask my opinion. A few days ago a buddy of mine was talking about the DPMS piston gun he was going to buy because they're so much cleaner. I made a few comments and sent him a link to this web site and to the chart. He is a smart guy and should figure it out. I've become tired of banging my head against the wall explaining why xyz is better than what they're looking to buy. I just smile when they look at my LMT or BCM and assume my gun is a POS because they've never heard about it or seen them in the recent gun magazine. I will say the few gun mags I buy have more and more of BCM's advertising in them which is a great thing.

    I appreciate the hard work Rob!
    "Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree

  7. #157
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    After several officers bought DPMS, Stag, Bushmasters, etc. ( One guy paid 1,400 for a DPMS with UTG rails:eek, and the other day he asked me how to get rust off of it because he had it sitting in his case for 3 months without any lube)

    I posted a copy of the chart in the squad room, hopefully someone will take a look at it

    Thanks Rob for the work you put in.

  8. #158
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    Before i was in the industry, I had no idea that there were differing barrel steels, etc. When i first saw the chart, I had no clue what most of the stuff meant, but i had my DPMS AR15. It took some research so I could even understand what it meant. All the research lead me to change careers. (was a high school Spanish teacher until the massive layoffs in California) Now I am employed in the industry, and trying to educate fellow AR consumers. Hopefully, learning a little from me...(through Rob's hard work, and others) they will do more research and learn more.

    Anyway, thanks Rob. I know ya don't do it for the accolades, but i appreciate what you have taught me.

  9. #159
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    Thank you Rob,
    The chart is one of the most excellent resources you can find on the internet that quickly and easily summarizes the litany of information one needs to be an educated consumer. Please continue to support the comparison section.

  10. #160
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    Some thoughts on the "batch testing" of different parts.

    Background: I am a manufacturing engineer with significant background in manufacturing quality control and statistics.

    I am playing somewhat devil's advocate in this post so please bear this in mind.

    There is a cost/time argument to be made for batch testing. There is always a trade-off in testing every part vs. "sampling" or what in this case may be called batch testing. If you chart your failures during the test of each individual samples, you can make a statistical argument for reduced sampling. There is a tradeoff of missing a bad part, however your background data can show you what that chance is. This is what you often see in the movies as the "bean-counter" argument where some statistician calculates that its cheaper to let bad parts go than test every part. However, if the part doesn't cause a catastrophic failure (like say a gas tank exploding or say a barrel exploding) than there may be some real value in reduced testing.

    The real question you have to ask, is do you trust the quality systems of those companies that do "batch testing" vs those that test every part.

    It also seems to me that there may be a case for proofing every part as I read Rob's description of the chart. This is only done on barrels and bolts and it sounds like it is a "catastrophic failure" test, similar to what they do for engine fans in jets (every part is x-rayed for cracks periodically--its very expensive, but consider that 1 broken part can kill 170+ people a la Sioux City Air liner crash--you can see why they do it). I'm not an expert on failure modes of a rifle via the various proof tests or mag particle inspection.

    Also to really have a justification for batch testing, you need to have their background process statistics. Without that, their batch test is really a random guess on failure rate. Unless they can show that there failure rate was a certain level to justify the batch testing, only then can you give them the "equivalence" or use the "bean counter" argument. You cannot just say, well it's cheaper to only measure 1 part out of 10, you need the failure rates to ask the question "If I get a failure at my current rate, what are the chances of my monitor system failing to detect an excursion"

    But then you get into the methodology of an "excursion". Is one bad barrel in this case an "Excursion"? How about 2? That's why you really need a Failure Modes Analysis of the system, and that is why companies that batch test really should be ready to justify it if there is an issue with failures that could cause injury. Off hand I haven't heard of one, but some things fail in such spectacular ways (like airline parts) that even 1 failure is unacceptable. I work in computer parts before they even become functional, so 100% yield for us is unheard of, we always have bad chips. But no one dies when we produce one--we just throw it away.

    Just some food for thought.

    AS I write this post, I can see where testing every part for something like the barrel and bolt may be needed, but on the other hand, I've never heard of one exploding for injury either. Something to look into at least. My point being one is not "good vs bad" there is a grey area, but one that can be clarified by the right type of people. You could be needlessly increasing rifle cost by extra cost. Or you could be missing important failures. Each one has it's issues (Statisticians will recognize this as type-1 and type 2 failures).
    Last edited by TXBob; 03-20-11 at 14:51.

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