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Thread: Status of NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4-pattern carbines

  1. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by -one- View Post
    It's pretty close. Let's use a hypothetical part: The Leroy Jenkins Upper Receiver Model A. Leroy Jenkins, Inc. claims this upper has M4 feed ramps and Teflon hard-coat. Under the "M4 Feed Ramps" column you might see 50% (413). That means out of 413 owners polled, only 50% actually had the M4 feed ramps. It's a lot more granular that way. The only problem would be abuse. I can imagine Leroy Jenkins, Inc. sending in a bunch of pictures of feed ramps in Colt receivers masquerading as his own.
    Way too many variables in that. Idealistically it may have some value, but it would be a full time job running around actually maintaining it and checking it. How many "LJI" owners do you think even know what an "M4 feedramp" is? And how do you account for the ever-shifting market? Remember that those who are not required to hold to a standard, rarely do, and as suppliers shift and change on a whim specifications change as well.

    since I don't even get paid for this shit now, and instead get equal parts-ration-of-shit:thanks, I think we'll stick with the current plan.

    I think it's better to let the manufacturers tell us what they claim, and we'll let the court of public opinion decide if they're telling the truth or not.

    Overall I think you guys will be happy with the level of detail here. There are some things that are unquantifiable ("properly" staked keys are a big on) and others that are difficult to verify (chemical makeup of steel, HPT/MPI, etc.).

    This is part of the reason I'm reluctant to preemptively release the Chart. If manufacturers don't know some of these answers, or don't know what they are supposed to be doing, they could simply look at the answers from others and "cheat".

  2. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    since I don't even get paid for this shit now, and instead get equal parts-ration-of-shit:thanks, I think we'll stick with the current plan.
    That part gave me a hearty chuckle. Yeah, it'd be a fairly impressive undertaking. I was actually considering building the architecture and automation to allow people to make their own submissions, but like you said, no pay + shit:thanks ratio would probably annoy me in the end. I'm impressed you've kept it going this long. I would've said screw it years ago.

  3. #313
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    The big issue is validating the submissions. With Google Docs/Spreadsheets/Forms it would be very easy to allow people to pick a manufacturer from a drop-down, pick a year of purchase, even type in the first four digits of a serial number, but beyond that the answers would start to become meaningless.
    Q: "Is your carrier key properly staked?"
    A: "steak? I like steak!"

    And that's the people that think they know what they're doing. Add in the trolls, the people intentionally trying to sink the ship or throw off the data, etc....

    No, it needs a filter. Responses need to be validated just like we did in the old thread.

    "You guys are assholes! My DPMS carrier key is so totally fully staked!"
    "Please post pictures of your carrier key so that we can evaluate and update the Chart if necessary."
    Crickets.
    Or a picture posted of half-assed top-staking. How productive!



    We'll have the same kind of ability in the new thread. "XYZ says they use a 5.56 chamber but here's a video of me checking mine with a chamber gauge and you can clearly see it's sticking." Enough posts like that and the confidence rating starts to decline.

    I'm still thinking the green/yellow/red confidence level ratings are probably the best way to go. They'll be hard to correlate to actual data and will be a bit subjective but will still probably get the job done. Everyone will start out green, I think.

  4. #314
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    Yep, that's the abuse I was speaking of. Some people have that psychological need to validate their purchase to the point of denial. Filtering out the noise is the hardest part of online reviews, and unfortunately I don't have the resources of Amazon or Epinions.

    The new direction is definitely a lot easier to maintain. And, like you said, it's straight from the builders' mouth. Speaking of builders, I'd bet your Chart has probably gained you enough clout that you could get them to send you sample rifles to "evaluate."

  5. #315
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    Look back through some of Rob's posts

  6. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    110501 Update:
    Completed responses from:
    • SIONICS

    Awaiting responses from:
    [LIST]
    I'd be curious to know how Sionics Weapons (not to be confused with the now defunct suppressor company) made the list. Not at all being critical, this is just the first time this company has been mentioned on this forum, so I was naturally a bit curious. The Vuurwapenblog did a writeup on them in October 2010 and it sounds like they use DD bolts, barrels and other parts. Also appears to be a write up on this co/rifle in the July 2011 issue of Guns and Weapons for Law Enf. They seem promising.
    Last edited by rudy99; 05-06-11 at 16:08.
    I've got a bunch of survival guides on my Kindle, so I'm ready for an EMP.

  7. #317
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    The owner of SIONICS contacted me directly and asked to be added.

  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inuvik View Post
    I think this thread is even more of a direct response to "the chart" than the one Grant linked to. They have even have a chart of their own.

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=30&t=157433

    Their explanations are very artful in the way that they address some requirements in a partial manner, and completely ignor others.
    Just read the entire thread. It's utter bullshit.

    It says a lot about DPMS that they would deliberately mislead their customer base about several features they list in that post. That's a nice way of saying that, if they'll lie about that, what ELSE will they lie about?

    It's not even worth rebutting. Their rifles are over-priced range toys only. Made me angry just reading it.

    On another note...Rob, keep up the great work and thank you for all that you've done so far.

  9. #319
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    I had made the mistake of buying a dpms rifle before I ever knew about a chart or this website and had thought it was a good deal. From the day of my ets in 88, I always wanted an AR. I was planning on getting one of their carbines also. Discovering this site really opened my eyes and the original chart thread and info, minus the chart, caused me to search out and study every little detail I could. Now I'm almost done with a build that is nothing but quality.
    I don't really think having a chart is necessary but I'm really looking forward to it. And thanks for putting all this time in Rob, and thanks to all the other guys on this site who unknowingly helped me get educated!

  10. #320
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    update made to first post.

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