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Thread: Status of NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4-pattern carbines

  1. #41
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    I agree, I dont think the brands/models depicted on the cart were as important to me as seeing SPECIFICALLY what features are desirable and why. (twist weight, MP testing ext, carrier key staking). Its important for people to see that there ARE physical differences between higher tiered brands and bushys, RRA, deltons ext. BETTER isn't good enough in the firearm world the hard data points provided gave me a framework to research my particular model of gun and make sure it checked all the boxes.

    In fact maybe a checklist version of the chart would allow new buyers to contact a manufacture and ask them specific questions and would reveal the responses that equal quality and the ones that dont.

  2. #42
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    ^that brings me to a semi-irrelevant question.

    Rob: did you ever poll Del-Ton by chance? I actually e-mailed them myself awhile ago and they happily shared with me a few answers to some general questions.

    Just wanted to say...Del-Ton's M4 (with appropriate optional upgrades) are a lot better than many people think, especially for the price.

  3. #43
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    My experience with the chart went something like this.

    Before I even knew about M4carbine, I did my research and knew what I wanted in my rifle. My research led me to in this order Kac, DD, BCM, and then LMT. Price and availability steered me away from KAC and LMT. So it was between DD and BCM which are priced pretty close to each other. Then after finding this forum I realized I can get a blem lower from BCM and put the parts on it that I wanted. I then found the "chart" which reinforced my decision.

    I think the chart also gives the companies that really work hard to put out a great product recognition (and sales) they deserve while at the same time informing customers.

    Maybe dont put a comparison chart, how about just a chart for each manufacturer and what the specs are. This way people would have to actually read why/what features are desirable and go through each chart to see if that manufacturer has the feature he/she might want.

    Hope that makes sense, imtired
    Last edited by nowayout; 03-05-11 at 23:18.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RP88 View Post
    ^that brings me to a semi-irrelevant question.

    Rob: did you ever poll Del-Ton by chance? I actually e-mailed them myself awhile ago and they happily shared with me a few answers to some general questions.

    Just wanted to say...Del-Ton's M4 (with appropriate optional upgrades) are a lot better than many people think, especially for the price.
    =================================

    RP88,
    Reading Rob_S quote below (which is from the previous page)...which number are you?

    =================================

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    ....Why do people lobby for this brand or that brand to be on the Chart? I only see three possible reasons.

    #1 - The requester already owns one and wants to validate their purchase. This is not the purpose of the Chart, and is in fact counter to everything the Chart is supposed to be about. It's also juvenile, and pathetic.

    #2 - The requester has an axe to grind with the requested manufacturer, and thinks that including them will expose their poor stats. Again, counter to everything the Chart is supposed to be about, and even more juvenile and pathetic.

    #3 - The requester is considering making a purchase from said manufacturer and wants the scoop. While understandable, why doesn't the requester simply examine a sample for the obvious, and ask questions of the manufacturer about the less obvious?

    ....

    Just wondering....


    .

  5. #45
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    #4 - a guy who just thinks that - since a certain brand is going through a surging of popularity - it would be sensible to include them in the list since they are becoming very mainstream. The only axe to grind right now for me is on CMMG's debated claims on barrel steel, which they have not given me a straight answer to. They also have not given a straight answer to anyone else. But that is a personal affair and I quietly await to see if Rob uncovers anything. I wish him good luck on it and am a huge gracious fan of his efforts.

    I personally used to own a Del-Ton and did not have any gripes. I had a general idea what it was for the money and was happy with it and its performance and quality before selling it during the panic to make some cash for a gun safe and a new AR (a CMMG upper build; and there is the axe to grind). I have no problems with my CMMG other than the fact that I'd like them to tell me what the hell is (or isn't) my rifle. I've contacted them numerous times under different e-mails to avoid hostility or getting blocked and they tell me the same thing: "I will forward your e-mail to someone more knowledgeable on the subject", then no one gets back to me.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Because, and maybe this is the cynic in me, those that know don't need it, and those that need it are too lazy to get it themselves?

    If I"m not catering to the lazy, what am I accomplishing?
    I don’t know that I would look at it like that. If that were the case why would anyone do any sort of research and put it out there for the masses?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Because, and maybe this is the cynic in me, those that know don't need it, and those that need it are too lazy to get it themselves?

    If I"m not catering to the lazy, what am I accomplishing?
    If you have ever been to a library, then you would know that it is filled with information that "others" have researched extensively and compiled for the specific reason of sharing it with others. Why they do this, I'm sure the reasons vary as much as the subjects. But nonetheless, it was compiled and people use it for their research. When people come to this forum, it is to learn. When they look at the chart, again it is to learn. When people go fishing for the very first time, they usually have someone show them what to do exactly. And if they enjoy fishing, they will look to for sources of compiled information on the various techniques to improve their fishing ability.

    This is what your chart is. It is a compiled source of information to inform the consumer (like consumer reports) so that they can make an informed decision.

    If a consumer calls the manufacturer, which will ALWAYS say theirs is the best. Even if that means misleading the consumer to make the sale. You sir, provide an independent source of information for those who are not yet educated.
    Last edited by Evil Bert; 03-06-11 at 09:19. Reason: spelling
    Quote Originally Posted by variablebinary View Post
    Paterno is about as innocent as Eric Holder in F&F...
    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    I don't have an issue with reviving a necropost. It's much better than 30 new lube threads every week.
    Wish For Eden

  8. #48
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    I don't know if I buy the research & library analogies. They seem to ignore the Explanation of Features portion of the document. I am sure that nobody thinks that everything there is to know about MPI, or barrel steel, or buffer weights, is included in those short paragraphs in the E of F. Right? So there is your sharing of knowledge, there is your library book.

    Your consumer reports analogy is better. They have their little graphs with the various shaded bubbles.


    While I don't want to get into rating things that way, and their system is probably copyrighted anyway, the analogy is much better that at least there is a precedence for it.

    I understand, also, that the appeal of the Chart and the popularity is due to the fact that it caters to the lazy. I get that. and I understand that my writing "career" is due almost entirely to the Chart's popularity. I just don't care.

    If there is a compelling reason to continue on with this project I will. and I know that in the vacuum of my letting it falter 20 different copycats will emerge (most of whom will simply be looking to capitalize on the drama). I'm not going to stop compiling the information from the manufacturers, but what I do with that in the end is still up for debate.

    I'm enjoying the discussion either way. It's interesting, however surprising, to see how many people still want to have the document available.

  9. #49
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    Rob, I say just do what makes you happy cause in the end thats all that matters and dont worry who gets upset over it. Either way rifle buying will still go on.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by nowayout View Post
    Rob, I say just do what makes you happy cause in the end thats all that matters and dont worry who gets upset over it. Either way rifle buying will still go on.
    Oh, either way there will be drama.

    The old way people were mad that their pet brand didn't get a fair shake. The new way, people will accuse every maker they don't like of lying. So I am, of course, going to do whatever I want in the end.

    Interestingly, in an article last year in a print magazine I talked about "your AR ain't milspec" and listed some of the more common reasons this was true. In the online comments section of the publisher's website, someone asked for a way to know which manufacturers meet which criteria. Guy was asking for the Chart and he didn't even know it.

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