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Thread: Why not? Devils advocate thread.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by OTO27 View Post
    This thread makes me want to ask something that I have been wondering for a while. Has anyone with a non stacked castle nut ever had one come loose? .

    Yes. I unknowingly bought a Bubba build as my first AR. The thing was totally thrown together by an amateur, and not only did the castle nut unscrew during firing, the gun developed catastrophic problems within the first 50 rounds that were apparently the result of someone solving "problems" by not following factory specs, or military doctrine, or whatever term you want to use.

    I am adamantly against home building to this day because of crap like this.

    EDIT: I want to go into more detail just FYI sake in case there are questions.

    As a new shooter, I bought my new toy and of course took it home and finger ****ed it for a few hours, probably with at least a six pack at my disposal. Not being familiar with the weapon, I thought the castle nut was there to disassemble the receiver extension for cleaning. I messed with it enough to know that it was tight enough that I couldn't budge it with my fingers. The next day I took the rifle to the range with no more than three or four boxes of ammo and about four Vietnam era twenty round magazines. Someone had already told me not to load them all the way, so each mag probably got no more than 15 rounds. Within those four mags the rifle locked up tight with the breech closed. I took the rifle to a gunsmith. He got the breech open, and he was the one who looked it over and judged it to be an amateurishly done home build. I forget his reasoning, but I was convinced at the time. During the course of his examination he pointed out that the castle nut was already loose, even though I had found it tight enough to need a tool to budge during my lusting session in the previous days.
    Last edited by Doc Safari; 03-17-11 at 23:18.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post

    Do you think that Colt and other reputables do it simply to do it?
    After asking (well Bugging to death)
    Iraqgunz with questions when i assembled My Colt Type 1 Stock to my Colt Lower

    i went to Home Depot and Picked up a spring loaded Punch(4 dollars). Staked the castle Nut in Less than 30 Seconds

    I have shot Hundreds of rounds and thrown My Weapon around and in has not budged .Do it right!!!
    And Again thank you Iraqgunz for all the Help and advice you have given me.
    Last edited by warpigM-4; 03-17-11 at 18:47.


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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by nynco View Post
    There is no arguing with that fact that you can't fix stupid.

    I would like to make a suggestion. I think it would be a valuable addition to the tech forum area to have a devils advocate thread. A thread explaining why some short cuts are wrong. I think there is a lot to learn there. Not to mention it might cut back on some people re-asking questions (which that might be me).

    example
    Why loc-tite is bad.
    Why not use 2 castle nuts.
    Why not over tighten the barrel nut.

    Heck it could be a funny thread of classic ****ups.
    because it's unnecessary, and all it'll do is propagate uninformed arguing which detracts from the overall content of the board.

    I think- as i typed out a few posts above and then decided to delete, but am now feeling vindicated in saying, so am going to post again- what we need is to NOT facilitate retardedness, but to shut it down immediately.

    my suggestion, as a non-staff member and nothing more than a guest, but hopefully valuable member, on this, my beloved site, is to institute a zero-tolerance policy for retarded, incredibly redundant threads like this one. moderator posts a brief, professional post explaining why the OP is an idiot and why the thread is being locked, and then immediately locks it, in the hopes that the stupidity will not spread contamination and infect other members, and in the hopes the moron will then seek the billions of pertinent, professional threads that already exist to preclude said thread from conception.

    this puts the load squarely on the moderators/staff... but more than having to issue infractions, cleanup/delete posts, THEN lock the thread? no.. it'll be a time saver. and it'll help steer new/idiot members toward the path of enlightenment, rather than alienate them with the classic M4C dogpile.

    this board has traveled far from it's beginnings. the people-who-know-something to people-who-know-shit ratio has gone WAY down. but that's to be expected. absolutely. we've got 45,000-some-odd members now, and they cant all be experts. severing the stupidity seems to me a better option than letting the poster get hammered in open thread.

    just my opinion, of course.


    ---

    ETA.... and you CAN sometimes "fix stupid"- just have to show it good threads.
    Last edited by bkb0000; 03-17-11 at 18:49.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by OTO27 View Post
    This thread makes me want to ask something that I have been wondering for a while. Has anyone with a non stacked castle nut ever had one come loose? I mean , KAC uses the "Area51 goop" stuff instead stacking and they seem to have a good track record.
    I bought a new SR-15 recently. I installed a Noveske QD end plate last week. There was no goop stuff, locktite, or staking from the factory. The nut was on really tight though.


    Now it is tight, and staked the way it should be with the end plate of my choice. It wasn't hard to do.

    Edited to add: The castle nut on my previous AR was not staked and it did come loose after about 2500 rounds, and I stepped on the rifle while it was in the soft case. I am pretty sure that is what caused it to come loose.
    Last edited by P2000; 03-17-11 at 18:55.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkb0000 View Post
    because it's unnecessary, and all it'll do is propagate uninformed arguing which detracts from the overall content of the board.

    I think- as i typed out a few posts above and then decided to delete, but am now feeling vindicated in saying, so am going to post again- what we need is to NOT facilitate retardedness, but to shut it down immediately.

    my suggestion, as a non-staff member and nothing more than a guest, but hopefully valuable member, on this, my beloved site, is to institute a zero-tolerance policy for retarded, incredibly redundant threads like this one. moderator posts a brief, professional post explaining why the OP is an idiot and why the thread is being locked, and then immediately locks it, in the hopes that the stupidity will not spread contamination and infect other members, and in the hopes the moron will then seek the billions of pertinent, professional threads that already exist to preclude said thread from conception.

    this puts the load squarely on the moderators/staff... but more than having to issue infractions, cleanup/delete posts, THEN lock the thread? no.. it'll be a time saver. and it'll help steer new/idiot members toward the path of enlightenment, rather than alienate them with the classic M4C dogpile.

    this board has traveled far from it's beginnings. the people-who-know-something to people-who-know-shit ratio has gone WAY down. but that's to be expected. absolutely. we've got 45,000-some-odd members now, and they cant all be experts. severing the stupidity seems to me a better option than letting the poster get hammered in open thread.

    just my opinion, of course.


    ---

    ETA.... and you CAN sometimes "fix stupid"- just have to show it good threads.
    And a Damn Good Opinion !!!


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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by OTO27 View Post
    This thread makes me want to ask something that I have been wondering for a while. Has anyone with a non stacked castle nut ever had one come loose? I mean , KAC uses the "Area51 goop" stuff instead stacking and they seem to have a good track record.
    Yep, few years ago I installed the RE on a lower build, torqued the castle nut and set aside since it was late and I was tired. Few days later, was in a hurry, forgot about the staking and test fired ~100rds w/out a problem. Took it to a local HP match the following weekend (SOP to allow me to "commission" a new rifle) and in the middle of the rapid-fire stages, the POI started wandering all over the target. Problem was easy to diagnose, but since I didn't have a wrench with me, I DNF'd the match.

    Lesson learned: Dont start an assembly step if you don't intend to finish it then and there. A few minutes to dig the nailset and hammer out of the toolbag and stake the nut would have saved much embarassment.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Brian,

    11B armorer's are not allowed to work on weapons. They are simply caretakers and they receive no formal weapons repair training.

    The only personnel allowed to troubleshoot, repair and gage weapons are 45B's or whatever their new MOS is now.

    If you are seeing those weapons with unstaked castle nuts then you need to do the following;

    Report it to your chain of command and let them know it is not right. Tell them to go to TM 9-1005-319-23&P and read page 235 which states that the locking nut and end plate must be staked in 2 places.
    IG I am going to throw the B.S. flag on this one, There is a short Unit Armorer's Course that folks can, I emphasize CAN, be sent to. The emphasis during that course is the use of the TM and the items listed in the TM for repair and servicing weapons. Those Unit Armorers are expected to do the job that is technically a 92Y (supply) MOS. They are supposed to supervise and assist on the -10 level maintenance, perform the -20 level and coordinate for any higher level needed maintenance needed. As for only 91F (formerly 45B) being the only ones authorized to repair small arm, folks at the maintenance companies go where the work is. A long time ago because of a stupid staffing model at the DA level. the DS companies of the 801st Maintenance BN had a 45N tank turret repairmen (now 91K), the only problem is, the 101st Airborne didn't have tank turrets to repair. That individual, supported my unit and did small arms repair unless the Arty guys needed help and he had to help them.

    It doesn't take a genius to read the TM and follow the instructions, they are supposed to be written on a third or fourth grade level. Technically speaking, the Unit Armorer is expected to perform all the maintenance, troubleshooting and repairs in Chapter 2.

    Brian1/75 made the comment about his unit's weapons. I will make the wild guess 1st BN, 75th Ranger Regiment might have some rifles that have seen some abuse over their days. If a Unit Armorer installed/ removed a single point sling plate (not an authorized modification and removing the lower receiver extension is not his level of maintenance), they might not have staked it back, so his seeing weapons without castle nut staking is entirely possible.
    “Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.” Robert Heinlein

  8. #48
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    You are correct. I also went to that course many years ago. However, we were told that aside from inspecting weapons and assisting with maintenance and assisting in maintenance records we couldn't do shit.

    I think we were allowed to replace slings and handguards. If someone had something crazy going on then we were to review the 2404 and then report it to higher maintenance. If a small arms repairman was available then we could assist them. When I was in Iraq we had unit armorers come to us all the time because they were not allowed to do anything as well.

    Things may have changed. However if those weapons are still unstaked then he should be bringing it to someones attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy MSG View Post
    IG I am going to throw the B.S. flag on this one, There is a short Unit Armorer's Course that folks can, I emphasize CAN, be sent to. The emphasis during that course is the use of the TM and the items listed in the TM for repair and servicing weapons. Those Unit Armorers are expected to do the job that is technically a 92Y (supply) MOS. They are supposed to supervise and assist on the -10 level maintenance, perform the -20 level and coordinate for any higher level needed maintenance needed. As for only 91F (formerly 45B) being the only ones authorized to repair small arm, folks at the maintenance companies go where the work is. A long time ago because of a stupid staffing model at the DA level. the DS companies of the 801st Maintenance BN had a 45N tank turret repairmen (now 91K), the only problem is, the 101st Airborne didn't have tank turrets to repair. That individual, supported my unit and did small arms repair unless the Arty guys needed help and he had to help them.

    It doesn't take a genius to read the TM and follow the instructions, they are supposed to be written on a third or fourth grade level. Technically speaking, the Unit Armorer is expected to perform all the maintenance, troubleshooting and repairs in Chapter 2.

    Brian1/75 made the comment about his unit's weapons. I will make the wild guess 1st BN, 75th Ranger Regiment might have some rifles that have seen some abuse over their days. If a Unit Armorer installed/ removed a single point sling plate (not an authorized modification and removing the lower receiver extension is not his level of maintenance), they might not have staked it back, so his seeing weapons without castle nut staking is entirely possible.



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  9. #49
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    I sometimes read and chuckle at many of the repetitious and redundant posts of late like many others on the boards. However, as members we have to take some of the responsibility for many of these threads that go nowhere or only in a circular motion with many of the regular readers feeling as if we are in the middle. We create this by regularly responding, extolling, mentoring, and bitching in reply to the posts.

    I read more than I type because of my inability to use more than 4 fingers to type. This lack of skill on my part makes it easy to skim over and not reply to many threads. It's not hard to resist the urge to post.

    FWIW I am in total agreement with the members who are tired of these types of posts, just feel we are partially to blame for many of them.
    "The peace we have within us is most often expressed in how we treat others"

  10. #50
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    Well as I said a way to cut down on some of the redundant questions is to have a "why you should not do this" sticky thread. Heck, it could be pretty funny and informative.
    "You done good. Remember the rules of home gun smithing: Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with a torch/dremel, grind it to fit, paint it to match with a sharpie!"

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