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Thread: Carbine vs. Middy: Real world use

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    Question Carbine vs. Middy: Real world use

    Hello everyone, first post but I think I have a valid question.

    Im putting on paper the build I am going to have for my second AR. Its going to be a fun gun/CQB for both shooting and helping my police friends with training. Its going to include a FF rail system, collapsible stock an Aimpoint M4 if I can afford it.

    From what I have read on the site so far, there seems to be a large agreement that the carbine system is harsh on parts. Even with the right buffer, its still consensus that it is too violent for most of the regular shooters. Here's my question:

    In real world shooting for those that use the AR platform for other than combat, is the carbine system that damaging to parts? By that, for people that don't take the rifle out daily and essentially live by it (police, SWAT, 3 gunners), will the shorter system cause premature wear to the point they will need to fix or purchase replacement parts?

    I cannot decide between the carbine or middy barrel. There are more options available for the carbine as most middys are out of stock right now. However, I do not want to replace parts early when I can avoid the problem the first time.

    Also, I have considered the pigtail gas tube to expand it to a middy, but again, general consensus is a solution looking for a problem. Any opinions and advice is appreciated. Thanks, Condition1
    Ask the Native Americans what happens when you dont control immagration.

    Hi, we're America. We build Monster Trucks for fun. We devoloped a Top Fuel dragster, 0-330MPH in under 5 seconds... cus we were bored. Piss us off, and see what we build... -Christopher Titus on War and Terrorism

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    I dont think anyone has shown solid numbers saying that a middy actually lasts longer. It's more of a theory right now.

    I have several thousand rounds through my duty Bushmaster carbine 16 inch and I havent noticed any excessive wear on the parts. But my Noveske middy does shoot softer.
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    There were several threads regarding articles written by Michael Pannone that discuss the carbine vs. mid-length. And explore some of the advantages/ disadvantages of the two systems as well as how to make some modifications/ improvements to enhance the reliability of either.

    I googled and found the original article, but it was on this site as well at one point.

    Link: http://www.defensereview.com/the-big...m4-unreliable/

    Once you are on that article, there will be links to his other articles at the bottom of the page.

    SkiDevil

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    All parts are going to wear. There are numerous factors involved. Types of ammo, rates of fire, maintenance and of course the parts involved.

    In theory and I suppose in some practice the middy is going to be smoother and less harsh. However, I doubt that the average civilian is going to burn out his carbine length AR.

    There are plenty of options out there for middies, so I am not sure where you have been looking. BCM has middy uppers in stock and most companies are producing rails. So what else can't you locate?

    I'll also go out on a limb and say that many civilians are putting more rounds through their AR's than the average cop. This is due to department policy, ammo cost, work vs. available time, etc....

    In any case you will be fine with a quality AR whether it be carbine or mid length.



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    C-Grunt and SkiDevil, thanks, I will check that out.

    Iraqgunz, 95% of the parts are located and been decided on. I suppose I should have been a bit clearer. My issue is whether to choose a carbine or mid length barrel and gas tube. As far as shoot-ability, Im not worried about softer shooting or follow up shots. I can compensate that with buffers and a FH/MB. Its more of a matter of picking the right set up the first time. I would hate to buy a carbine and figure out the middy is better for my needs(or vise versa). And, as it will be a FF rail that will cover the gas block, my armorer will not be that happy if I switch. I do appreciate that knowledge though. I do understand it will be preference a great deal, but I hope to take the experiences of others' successes and complaints into account. Thanks, Condition1
    Ask the Native Americans what happens when you dont control immagration.

    Hi, we're America. We build Monster Trucks for fun. We devoloped a Top Fuel dragster, 0-330MPH in under 5 seconds... cus we were bored. Piss us off, and see what we build... -Christopher Titus on War and Terrorism

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    Your question is too complicated. "Premature wear" is relative, you swap barrels on some machine guns every 10k rounds, is that premature? Not really, barrels are a essentially a disposable part. No one cries about having to replace the brakes on their car and they are not being worked as hard as the gas port on a rifle.

    An AR-15 needs to have enough pressure to unlock the bolt and drive it back far enough to strip the next round. One way to ensure that happens with a wide variety of ammo is to make absolutely sure that enough gas at a high pressure is getting to it. If you wanted you could make a custom gas system that worked with one specific load, and had just enough pressure to do this without any excess wear but it would be impractical because ammo varies between lots, manufacture, was it made on a friday or a monday etc.

    The long and short is they both work reliably when using OK ammunition. That is what's is usually important.

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    When I say smooth I mean the operation of the weapon, not whether or not you can shoot it.

    I also forgot to mention something about those pig tail things. GARBAGE.

    Quote Originally Posted by condition1 View Post
    C-Grunt and SkiDevil, thanks, I will check that out.

    Iraqgunz, 95% of the parts are located and been decided on. I suppose I should have been a bit clearer. My issue is whether to choose a carbine or mid length barrel and gas tube. As far as shoot-ability, Im not worried about softer shooting or follow up shots. I can compensate that with buffers and a FH/MB. Its more of a matter of picking the right set up the first time. I would hate to buy a carbine and figure out the middy is better for my needs(or vise versa). And, as it will be a FF rail that will cover the gas block, my armorer will not be that happy if I switch. I do appreciate that knowledge though. I do understand it will be preference a great deal, but I hope to take the experiences of others' successes and complaints into account. Thanks, Condition1



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SemperParatusArms/

    Semper Paratus Arms AR15 Armorer Course http://www.semperparatusarms.com/cou...-registration/

    M4C Misc. Training and Course Announcements- http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=141

    Master Armorer/R&D at SIONICS Weapon Systems- http://sionicsweaponsystems.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    I also forgot to mention something about those pig tail things. GARBAGE.
    I have for sure heard more bad than good regarding them. Its for sure a sounds too good to be true kinda thing.
    Ask the Native Americans what happens when you dont control immagration.

    Hi, we're America. We build Monster Trucks for fun. We devoloped a Top Fuel dragster, 0-330MPH in under 5 seconds... cus we were bored. Piss us off, and see what we build... -Christopher Titus on War and Terrorism

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    Quote Originally Posted by condition1 View Post
    I would hate to buy a carbine and figure out the middy is better for my needs(or vise versa).
    I don't think either one will be better for your needs. I burn through a lot of ammo every year and until about 18 months ago, I never really considered a mid length. Now, I see small advantages FOR ME with the mid length, but those small 'advantages' are in the feel of the gun and my ability to push it just a little farther on the timer.

    When it comes to real world use, I'd be fine with either. Given the choice when all things are under my control and I can actually see those small advantages, I'll take a mid length.

    Don't stress this decision, I doubt you'll see any significant difference either way in parts breakage or reliability. Have you had trouble with carbine length systems up till now? Like I said, my reasoning was for feel, then it kind of stuck and now anything that's 14.5" or more gets a mid length system since I have the option.
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; 03-26-11 at 00:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    In theory and I suppose in some practice the middy is going to be smoother and less harsh. However, I doubt that the average civilian is going to burn out his carbine length AR.


    In any case you will be fine with a quality AR whether it be carbine or mid length.
    Thats about it. Well said gunz. Thats why I wasnt upset when I heard about the factual and theorized advantages of middies after I had gotten my DD Carbine.
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