Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 31

Thread: Objectivity and the....(sigh) HK 416

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    542
    Feedback Score
    48 (100%)

    Objectivity and the....(sigh) HK 416

    First let me state that I ask this of my free-will and own accord knowing damn well that any piston or HK thread goes over like a lead balloon. I also would like to state the following:

    - I don't care to hear about your LWRC or piston conversion, this is 416 specific

    - I don't give a damn how much HK "hates you because you suck." A company can rollmark "Eat shit, end user" on the mag well so long as the rifle does its job reliably, i'll give it a look.


    That said here is my question: While the 416 isn't loved and is not problem-free, has any respected industry professional publicly advised against this system? Something like Larry Vickers' post about HK mags in 2007 basically stating: "I have alot of experience with HK M16 mags and can no longer recommend them due to some issues the current version has".

    I know i've seen pics of LAV running one as well as a pic of Costa shooting with a 416 from a vehicle in Oct of 2010. I'm sure some will make an argument for the price factor involved for non-issued users, but are there any screaming "NO!" like what was said about the HK mags? I ask this not to copy what the pro's are doing. I ask this because these guys usually don't bullshit on what does and doesn't work.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    508
    Feedback Score
    0
    There was a thread awhile back on piston ARs and the Hk came up. As I recall, there were one or two guys that posted that had actual hands on experience with it. If memory serves me correctly, I think they said it was holding up fine in the sandbox, though you might want to search for it and read it for yourself. I think what most here have said is that it's heavy, expensive and, while it works just fine, it isn't the wonder gun some were making it out to be.

    I don't have hands on experience with it, so that's the best I can offer. Personally, I'm fine with a piston AR as long as it's durable, reliable and accurate. It's the same standard for every tool.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    542
    Feedback Score
    48 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Striker View Post
    There was a thread awhile back on piston ARs and the Hk came up. As I recall, there were one or two guys that posted that had actual hands on experience with it. If memory serves me correctly, I think they said it was holding up fine in the sandbox, though you might want to search for it and read it for yourself. I think what most here have said is that it's heavy, expensive and, while it works just fine, it isn't the wonder gun some were making it out to be.

    I don't have hands on experience with it, so that's the best I can offer. Personally, I'm fine with a piston AR as long as it's durable, reliable and accurate. It's the same standard for every tool.
    This one?:

    http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75117

    I know the piston is not popular here (and with good cause in most cases), but most here are also in tune with what the pro's find out.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    8,421
    Feedback Score
    3 (100%)
    My question is why the HK? The piston design adds complexity, weight and cost to perform the same function. If the HK offers the same performance, what is the advantage? IBTL
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    508
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by pointblank4445 View Post
    This one?:

    http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75117

    I know the piston is not popular here (and with good cause in most cases), but most here are also in tune with what the pro's find out.
    Yeah, I think that's the one. When I read those, I look for people who've had direct experience with the weapon or, in some cases, were in theater with guys using it/them. Direct knowledge is what I was looking for.

    Again, I don't have any direct experience with the 416, so like you, I'm just reading what others are saying about it. Pistons are fine for me, but they have had their problems. And again, for me, the standard for any tool is the same, it has to work. And when I hear someone say something like carrier tilt isn't a problem, I think they're fooling themselves. Of course it's a problem. I say if you want a 416 or MR556, get it. All reports are that they're fine. I personally though am not sure what I get for $4000.00 that I won't get from a Centurion Arms build or get from a Noveske rifle that costs me around $1500.00 That's more my dilemma. Love to see pics if you get it though.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    834
    Feedback Score
    16 (100%)
    There are some pretty serious people that use the HK416. They could have anything they want and they go for the 416. That says something. But remember they also use it full auto with suppressors at high round counts. That's an application that really tears up a DI SBR. The 416 was made for this, literally.

    But there are a couple of serious issues with the MR556 or MR223 as offered by HK in the US: the stupid magwell and the stupid barrel.

    The magwell requires you to use Emags, GI mags or the HK mags. This isn't the end of the world, but it's a major issue. Already the USMC has stopped allowing Marine units to buy Pmags for use in the M16A4 because they are incompatible with the IAR. It's unknown if they will get to buy Emags or get stuck with GI mags. So HKs magwell has kept the USMC from upgrading to a superior magazine. Awesome.

    The current barrel as offered by HK is super heavy and non-chrome lined. That's weak sauce IMO. At least treat it with Melonite or something similar.

    The HK416 system is a very solid setup especially for an SBR, but only if you can get an HK416 upper with a proper barrel and put it on a lower with a proper magwell. I wouldn't touch the current MR556 with a ten foot pole. But if I could legally have a SBR, I would look hard at a 10.5 inch HK416 upper. Otherwise, I'll stick with DI.
    Last edited by GlockWRX; 03-27-11 at 00:35. Reason: typo

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    LV
    Posts
    755
    Feedback Score
    5 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by GlockWRX View Post
    But there are a couple of serious issues with the MR556 or MR223 as offered by HK in the US: the stupid magwell and the stupid barrel.

    The magwell requires you to use Emags, GI mags or the HK mags. This isn't the end of the world, but it's a major issue. Already the USMC has stopped allowing Marine units to buy Pmags for use in the M16A4 because they are incompatible with the IAR. It's unknown if they will get to buy Emags or get stuck with GI mags. So HKs magwell has kept HK from upgrading to a superior magazine. Awesome.
    A friend of mine has a MR223 that takes standard Pmags with no issues. I haven't seen the US version, except on the HK stand at SHOT, so I don't know if this is an issue with it.

    I have a 416 upper on a Colt (Colt Canada) lower. It isn't a SBR and hasn't been used suppressed, but it is very heavy and has been very reliable. Even after a 20m overnight bath in the Med (don't ask, I'm a dumbass), it is still reliable and functions well. Having said that, I got the upper very cheap, so if I had to pay near retail, I would pass. Did I mention that it is heavy? I am using Pmags with it, but that is with a standard lower.

    I think that LAV's comments were more towards the HK mags. The mags are also very heavy but really nothing special. They are "high reliability" compared to GI mags with the old black followers, but not really any more reliable than the current GI mags and certainly no more reliable than Pmags/Emags or anti-tilt follower mags. IIRC, the HK mag was a fix for the reliability problems with the Brit's trainwreck SA80, not the M4. I can't speak for LAV specific opinions, but know his experience makes his words very influential.

    I am too old, too rich and too good looking to go into combat now, but I can relate what I know from some work my company does with Italy's Navy COMSUBIN (Italian version of US Navy special warfare), who adopted the 416 for a while, is that they prefer the C8 (Colt Canada M4) due to weight. The 416 is used only for marine operations in a 10.5" barrel version, usually with a supressor. I have also spoken to some soldiers who are Danes, Norwegians, and Dutch (who have all adopted the 416 in a broad issue) and all have complained about the parts interchange and weight of the 416 that they use with the 14.5 or 16.5 inch barrels.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    6,533
    Feedback Score
    8 (100%)
    Dano posted a list of negatives and drawbacks that he's observed first hand with the HK416 as issued.

    I haven't heard of any of the usual highly respected SME's publicly waving off of the HK416 the way they have the HK416 "maritime" magazines.


    The SOT I consult for has a post 86 dealer sample HK416 10.5".

    It's an all factory select fire HK assault rifle, and I've had a fair amount of trigger time behind it, as well as other 10.5" HK416 uppers on semi auto lowers.

    Personally, as a civilian user, the cost-benefit analysis really says to bypass the HK. I honestly think most civilian SBR end users would be better served with a factory SBR from Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, or Noveske.

    As previously stated, the cost and availability of proprietary HK parts, the excess weight, and the cost to get into one are the real negatives against it.

    Now, if dropping several thousand dollars for a HK416 upper won't put a dent in your wallet, and you want one, then brother, drive on and get one, but I honestly think a Colt 6933 would better serve most people.

    Here's member Subzero getting some trigger time on our HK416 at our annual New Years machine gun shoot.

    Very little muzzle rise.....

    Employee of colonialshooting.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    N. Alabama
    Posts
    2,043
    Feedback Score
    8 (100%)
    Obviously everyone's grey market exchange rate is slightly different, but in my neck of the woods, I could buy 2 COMPLETE 6933 SBRs for the price of a single, 10", NIB, HK416 Upper kit.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    AZ-Waging jihad against crappy AR's.
    Posts
    24,902
    Feedback Score
    104 (100%)
    I believe that only 2 MARDIV has instituted the PMAG ban. It is also unknown as to why they did so.

    AFAIK the IAR isn't fully in the pipeline or in use. Do you know from a reliable source as to why the PMAG issue came about?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlockWRX View Post
    There are some pretty serious people that use the HK416. They could have anything they want and they go for the 416. That says something. But remember they also use it full auto with suppressors at high round counts. That's an application that really tears up a DI SBR. The 416 was made for this, literally.

    But there are a couple of serious issues with the MR556 or MR223 as offered by HK in the US: the stupid magwell and the stupid barrel.

    The magwell requires you to use Emags, GI mags or the HK mags. This isn't the end of the world, but it's a major issue. Already the USMC has stopped allowing Marine units to buy Pmags for use in the M16A4 because they are incompatible with the IAR. It's unknown if they will get to buy Emags or get stuck with GI mags. So HKs magwell has kept HK from upgrading to a superior magazine. Awesome.

    The current barrel as offered by HK is super heavy and non-chrome lined. That's weak sauce IMO. At least treat it with Melonite or something similar.

    The HK416 system is a very solid setup especially for an SBR, but only if you can get an HK416 upper with a proper barrel and put it on a lower with a proper magwell. I wouldn't touch the current MR556 with a ten foot pole. But if I could legally have a SBR, I would look hard at a 10.5 inch HK416 upper. Otherwise, I'll stick with DI.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SemperParatusArms/

    Semper Paratus Arms AR15 Armorer Course http://www.semperparatusarms.com/cou...-registration/

    M4C Misc. Training and Course Announcements- http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=141

    Master Armorer/R&D at SIONICS Weapon Systems- http://sionicsweaponsystems.com

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •