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Thread: Objectivity and the....(sigh) HK 416

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    I believe that only 2 MARDIV has instituted the PMAG ban. It is also unknown as to why they did so.

    AFAIK the IAR isn't fully in the pipeline or in use. Do you know from a reliable source as to why the PMAG issue came about?
    This isnt the true cause, but there is a serious misunderstanding of PMAGs in the military. Many officers and SNCOs treat them as lesser quality items, and many have asked me to use GI mags. I remember being on the range last year and being told I would recieve no alibi's if I continued to use those plastic magazines.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    I believe that only 2 MARDIV has instituted the PMAG ban. It is also unknown as to why they did so.

    AFAIK the IAR isn't fully in the pipeline or in use. Do you know from a reliable source as to why the PMAG issue came about?
    It sure is. 3rd Marines in Hawaii is deploying them to OEF as we speak, I have seen this firsthand. 1/3 was the first unit to use them at Mojave Viper and they will be/are the first to use it in Afghanistan.

    As far as them using PMAGs....well...3rd Marines is one of the biggest supporters of PMAG use in the Corps. Not sure how they're working the IAR/PMAG "dilemma". Ill ask them on Monday.

    From what I've seen and heard, the IAR isn't really a huge improvement. SAW gunners like it merely because they don't have to carry a SAW, its alot less weight and they're no longer a target. Most of us know that 90% of SAW gunners in the Corps are not "high speed low drag operators", they are boots. Usually the dumb, demotivated ones at that. That may be why the SAW gets such a bad wrap in the first place. I'm not so sure if I was in a line company without the availability of crew serves for whatever reason I would be cool with having just a 30 round, magazine fed "light machine gun". After 1/3 returns they will be giving AARs to HQMC about the IAR. This may just be the "old corps" talking, but I can't really see them giving very favorable AARs after spending 7 months in helmand without belt fed weapons at the squad level.

    Sure, the SAW jams sometimes, and when it jams its a bit difficult to clear but in a FPF situation you have 200 rounds of ammo you can dispense at the cyclic rate. A quick reload and barrel change, maybe a squirt of CLP and you have another 200 down the pipe. Rinse and repeat all day long. What happens when you are getting overrun with the IAR? Who has all the extra mags?

    Sorry, this turned into a bit of a rant. I'm just not a fan of the IAR replacing the SAW. It should be used with the SAW
    Last edited by Eurodriver; 03-27-11 at 02:45.
    Why do the loudest do the least?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowSpeed_HighDrag View Post
    This isnt the true cause, but there is a serious misunderstanding of PMAGs in the military. Many officers and SNCOs treat them as lesser quality items, and many have asked me to use GI mags. I remember being on the range last year and being told I would recieve no alibi's if I continued to use those plastic magazines.
    That sucks. In my company we actually each got combat load supply of pmags and then some. We also got a shit load of self leveling GI mags. We also got the conversion to turn GI mags in to self leveling GI mags.

    I've personally have seen the dark ones in theater using 416 and 417s. H&K must be doing something right....
    Last edited by colombianito1021; 03-27-11 at 02:39.

  4. #14
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    I saw the info posted over at SOCNET, although no one seemed to be able to explain exactly why. The whole IAR issue was just a guess.

    I find it hard to believe that there are still idiots out there debating their merits considering who and how many I have seen being used in Iraq and A'stan.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowSpeed_HighDrag View Post
    This isnt the true cause, but there is a serious misunderstanding of PMAGs in the military. Many officers and SNCOs treat them as lesser quality items, and many have asked me to use GI mags. I remember being on the range last year and being told I would recieve no alibi's if I continued to use those plastic magazines.



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  5. #15
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    FWIW the Luxembourg national "SWAT" unit uses the H&K 416 & 417. From what I hear they like it.



    Doesn´t the Norvegian Army use the 416 as a standard rifle? They should have quite some experience with them by now... How do they like them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    FWIW the Luxembourg national "SWAT" unit uses the H&K 416 & 417. From what I hear they like it.



    Doesn´t the Norvegian Army use the 416 as a standard rifle? They should have quite some experience with them by now... How do they like them?
    I read one account from a Norwegian soldier talking about their 416 vs. their old issue G3's. The soldier liked the fact that cleaning the 416 took about 1/4 of the time that it took to clean a G3. He was also questioned about the rumor of failures at extremely low temperatures. IIRC, he stated that some issues were encountered at colder temps, but were no more frequent if not less frequent than with their G3. His biggest concern was not of the rifle platforms, but of the switch from 7.62 to 5.56.......which is nothing that any of us haven't heard from the 60's when we went to the M16.

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    From personal experience, we have had much more frequent bolt breakage on our 416's than on any of our DI guns. Admittedly, our guns are run much harder than most guns- auto, suppressed mostly.

    They also are very front heavy, loud suppressed, and i find the rail very big and clunky.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonAAC View Post
    From personal experience, we have had much more frequent bolt breakage on our 416's than on any of our DI guns. Admittedly, our guns are run much harder than most guns- auto, suppressed mostly.

    They also are very front heavy, loud suppressed, and i find the rail very big and clunky.

    Broken bolts as in separation/breakage at the cam pin hole or sheared lugs? I posed this unanswered question on the thread linked above: what factor (if any) does a suppressor play on AR15/416 bolt breakages?

  9. #19
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    HK416 has very good record here in Poland. GROM selected HK for combat units some years ago (support units got KAC, Bushmasters where given away). Now also 1.PSK uses HK416 (14.5" and 16.5"). Both units use them in sandbox. No problems reported.

    Best known issue is whith bad design of adjustable gas block for Norwegian contract (requested by Norwegian Army, who do not believe in "self regulating"). HK corrected system. So called "freeze problem" was ballooned by one soldier who knew how to use internet, but apparently did sleep when they trained them that in Arctic you do not bring firearm from freeze to warm indoors, let it collect all humidity from air and them move it back to -30C. Every rifle will freeze in this situation, making chambering round quite hard (but in AK you can at least kick or jump on charging handle).

    HK416/MR223/MR556 do not use P-Mag, because they were designed to use magazines that fulfil specification on STANAG magazine. Unfortunately P-Mag is not STANAG compliant magazine. Other weapon systems that use STANAG magazine (like SA80, FAMAS, F2000, etc.) also can not use P-Mag. This can be issue when operating along allied forces that use STANAG magazines but can not take P-Mag. E-mag solves this problem.
    Montrala

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  10. #20
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    Regarding Pmags, I once had an LMY lower that would not drop them free when they were empty. DOes that mean LMT sucks? I think not. I think a top grade DI gun (Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, etc) is fine for the average user.

    If the HK416 was anywhere near as problem plagued as some people claim, it would never have been adopted or kept in continued use by the most elite military unit in the US, for whom it was originally developed. Nor would it have seen the sucesss that it has with adoption by other elite units.

    To quote a few SME's from here on the HK416:

    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Some recent military shooting demonstrated that the HK416 exhibited substantially greater reliability and 3-4 times the durability of a Colt M4, with significantly less need for maintenance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
    HK416

    -The bolt & barrel seem to last several fold over the DI CQBR of whatever manufacturer.
    and:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
    The HK416 is a much cheaper weapons system when one considers the lifecycle cost on a high rd ct training (aka a training/demonstrator) weapon.

    With the same rd ct, you will go through several M4A1 uppers before a 416 upper is wornout.

    If your doing night centric operations, it's kinda nice to have a laser mounted on a rail that doesn't move/shift zero.

    I have seen over 8K rds through a 416 w/o cleaning, w/o indicator of probs/sluggishness. This allows alot more time that could be spent on the primary function of instructing/teaching/mentoring/briefing/etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by M4Guru View Post

    But in this case, yes. Military units with the latitude to test and choose literally any system...M4, Sig 55X, AK, WHATEVER....spent millions of dollars to determine that this was the best rifle. No lowest bidder that meets the standard, no Congressman trying to get dollars to his district, just simple performance at any cost. This gun (the 416) won. It was truly the best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Vickers View Post

    4) A Colt 6920 is a very good gun ( I used one for a long time while instructing) and is just fine for most civilian and LE users - just keep it lubed

    5) I recommend a piston AR for the following;

    a) barrel length less than 14.5 inches
    b) extensive full auto fire
    c) wide variety of ammo being used
    d) suppressed use

    6) I hope the HK416 & 417 will be available to civilians and individual LE officers someday - I have campaigned tirelessly for this since the 416 was introduced

    7) The 416 would be my first choice in a 5.56mm assault rifle if given the option

    8) I have seen alot of ammo shot out of a 416 (probably more than anyone in the USA) - and in my experience it is MORE accurate than a DI AR - I have seen a 10 inch 416 shoot minute of angle from a machine rest at the factory after being fired 12,000 rds during a lot acceptance test - I, like others who witnessed it, would never have believed it is I had not seen it myself

    9) The spec ops users of the 416 I train and know love the gun except for the weight (it has a fairly heavy barrel under that rail system) - HK is offering a lighter profile barrel as an option now
    Last edited by Ed L.; 03-27-11 at 20:38.

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