Martial Arts

[manderson2228]

I hope this is the right place to put this, mods move it if you need to. Looking to start taking some martial arts to get in a good workout while also learning some hand to hand techniques. I am completely overwhelmed at the sheer number of "styles".. Was leaning towards Krav Maga due to it's no BS approach to winning fights, but I am open. Any and all advice or recommendation is appreciated.

For those of you who might be in the Atlanta area can you recommend any specific gyms you like or have heard good things about?

[Bcs379]

I recently picked up Systema as a martial art. I am only on my 6th or 7th session but I can tell you it is fantastic. My instructor took Krav Maga while he served in the IDF and teaches Kapap which is another Israeli fighting style I believe.

One main point I like about Systema is that it concentrates on tension and breathing as the principles of fighting. My instructor showed us first hand through a stress drill how Systema can be more effective, especially when you have multiple attackers. Krav Maga concentrates on explosive punches and movements, while Systema concentrates on fighting relaxed which takes alot less energy.

It seems like giberish and it's pretty hard to explain in a believable manner though. I prefer Systema, but I haven't even been into martial arts very long. Some people prefer certain methods for different reasons though. Your best bet would be to check out any local martial art dojos that you maybe interested in. I am sure the instructor wouldn't mind letting you watch at least or possibly getting a feel for it.

There are just too many martial arts to begin with though...

Hope this helps,
-Brandon

[SteyrAUG]

It can be hard to find genuine martial arts instruction in this day and age. The reality is true and effective martial arts training is not terribly impressive to watch, difficult and the training is monotonous. And almost nobody wants to pay money for that experience so real schools are not commercially successful.

But people will pay for instruction in impressive stylistic or gymnastic mimicries of combat, especially if they are constantly told how awesome they are, have a cool uniform and get their very own black belt in short order. It makes no difference that they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, they have a cool certificate for their wall.

Also be aware that whatever is popular is whatever is exploited. For every decent and legitimate school of Krav Maga, Jujutsu, Gung Fu, Kickboxing or Mixed Eclectic there will be ten completely worthless schools claiming to teach those systems.

The best bet is to simply find something that isn't completely hokey that is affordable and close enough to you that you attend regularly. Then even if the school isn't exactly in line with your preferred focus, you can adjust your own training accordingly.

The tournament competitor, the forms expert and the serious fighter essentially all do pretty much the same punches, blocks, kicks and take downs but the manner in which they train and drill and the level of application they train to achieve are what separates one from the other.

I'd strongly recommend the following books:

Zen in the Martial Arts by Joe Hyams
Living the Martial Way : A Manual for the Way a Modern Warrior Should Think by Forrest E. Morgan
Bruce Lee's Fighting Method: Vol 1-4 by Bruce Lee

They will greatly assist you in your personal training regardless of school or style that you choose.

[memphisjim]

im from the school of thought that
only real experience is a true teacher
but you can certainly learn techniques and spar to assist
but its not like the real thing

for instance look at professional mma a majority of the elite fighters have a wrestling background this isnt because wrestling is that great a style its because its a competition based learning process these guys have wrestled 100's of times all out so they have a feel for it and know what works

[QuickStrike]

Even though Bruce Lee was a so-so actor IMO... he was a pretty serious student of scrappin'.

The guy thought that a person who would take up boxing and wrestling (submission wrasslin' like Gene Lebell's stuff) would be VERY dangerous in a relatively short period of time.

If one notices how mma is today, it looks like he is mostly right.

Another awesome combination would be MT/BJJ.

Depends on what you like, find a place with decent active fighters and try it out. Be it a boxing gym or mma place.

I would avoid infomercial type ninja shit. If you want to get good at anything, you must pay and sacrifice, and realistic sparring is a must.

im from the school of thought that
only real experience is a true teacher
but you can certainly learn techniques and spar to assist
but its not like the real thing

I disagree. Experience from what? Picking bar fights? lol

Repetitions of good techniques ===> turns into reflexes that will save your bacon when the fight doesn't go your way (similar to shooting right?).

And just like shooting, proper stand-up/ground work is unnatural as hell. People don't naturally throw straight punches, or hold and aim controlled explosions in their hands.

If one desires to do better than crappy off-balanced haymakers and awkward grabbing, solid instruction will help.

Valid techniques + physical condition + mental condition = Mofreakin' Chuck Norris!

[Cylinder Head]

This is the one area on this forum that I can consider myself having any level of expertise. I've taken some form of fight training/martial arts since I was 10 (I'm 30 now, we're talking 20 years at this point).

I took Karate/Kendo/Judo for 10 years, but it didn't help me very much in street fights (I was a scrappy, skinny kid who got picked on a lot). I am a black belt in Koei Kan Karate and I can tell you that I've learned more from watching Anderson Silva film than anything I learned in karate.

Kicks look cool in the UFC but you won't be throwing many in the street. I've landed one effective kick in a fight, ever. Striking styles like Krav are cool in practice but you're rarely going to find a willing participant in a street fight to stand there while you shove a bladed hand into their neck. Krav is not going to get you fast, and it's not going to get you in shape to fight. Remember that the guys in the IDF who are taking Krav are already in great shape, and are already trained to kill. They are not Joe Schmoe walking in from the street. Chokes are great but most ground styles like jiu jitsu get very ugly in the street unless you are high level.

I'd go as far as to say that most martial arts are a sham and completely useless in practice. They all need to be adapted to the street heavily to be effective, so why not learn a technique that definitively applies to the street?

You want to learn how to scrap and get in to great shape?? Join a boxing gym. Boxing is the single most effective striking style out there, period. I trained at Lou Duva's gym in Fairfield, NJ for a year and a half, four days a week, and learned more about footwork, balance and real world effective technique than in anything else.

Your hands turn into rocks, and when you take off those 16 ounce gloves your hand speed is incredible. When someone throws a punch at you, you're going to instinctively move out of the way (and not throw up some ridiculous arm block like karate would have you do). Boxing put me in the best shape of my life and I would recommend it to anyone.

Wrestling has been mentioned as well, and I'd also highly recommend it though my experience there is limited. Being able to control your opponent is the key to winning.

[pmarc]

[Bruce Lee] thought that a person who would take up boxing and wrestling (submission wrasslin' like Gene Lebell's stuff) would be VERY dangerous in a relatively short period of time.

If one notices how mma is today, it looks like he is mostly right.

Another awesome combination would be MT/BJJ.

Depends on what you like, find a place with decent active fighters and try it out. Be it a boxing gym or mma place.

Valid techniques + physical condition + mental condition = Mofreakin' Chuck Norris!

QuickStrike hit the nails here.

You have to wonder, when you are being taught, or training a particular move, how it would fare against EVAN (Enemy, bigger Volume, Armed or Numbers). Because, that is the situation when you would be attacked (They think they can beat you).

You have to remember that sometimes your partner has to be non-compliant... Sometimes, particularly with locks, we train in a way that is not realistic: we do small, slow movements. The reality is explosive, sudden moves, in a way that EVAN cannot counter.
Sometimes, you have to strike hard prior to performing a technique, otherwise EVAN can resist...

As CylinderHead pointed, gound fight in the street can get pretty ugly. We had several JJ black belts beaten (or shot) to death in Rio de Janeiro (I lived there for ~6 yrs).
Remember, when you are there grappling with one guy, his friends are there, hitting you with pipes, 2x4s, chains, whatever... That's EVAN

Unfortunately, training locks full speed is something we seldom do, because of the high rate of serious injuries.

Also, a kick to side of the knee is a fight finisher. I recieved one in a slow demonstration of a technique and tore the ligament. I did lay down for 5 minutes, unable to stand. Done in a full blow it is devastating.

I would also recomend some FMA, probably Silat Look for PCK instructors in your area. I have trained with Jerry Jacobs, he is an outstanding guy.
The thing with FMA (silat in that particular) is that you have the mindset of multiple attackers, you do not stay there struggling with one guy, you apply devastating blows to him and go to another one.
However, in a SD scenario, that may put you in a severe liability case.
Read some of Marc McYoung stuff

That EVAN concept is something taken from Kombato, which I've been training and teaching in the last few years.

[SteyrAUG]

This is the one area on this forum that I can consider myself having any level of expertise. I've taken some form of fight training/martial arts since I was 10 (I'm 30 now, we're talking 20 years at this point).

I took Karate/Kendo/Judo for 10 years, but it didn't help me very much in street fights (I was a scrappy, skinny kid who got picked on a lot). I am a black belt in Koei Kan Karate and I can tell you that I've learned more from watching Anderson Silva film than anything I learned in karate.

Kicks look cool in the UFC but you won't be throwing many in the street. I've landed one effective kick in a fight, ever. Striking styles like Krav are cool in practice but you're rarely going to find a willing participant in a street fight to stand there while you shove a bladed hand into their neck. Krav is not going to get you fast, and it's not going to get you in shape to fight. Remember that the guys in the IDF who are taking Krav are already in great shape, and are already trained to kill. They are not Joe Schmoe walking in from the street. Chokes are great but most ground styles like jiu jitsu get very ugly in the street unless you are high level.

I'd go as far as to say that most martial arts are a sham and completely useless in practice. They all need to be adapted to the street heavily to be effective, so why not learn a technique that definitively applies to the street?

You want to learn how to scrap and get in to great shape?? Join a boxing gym. Boxing is the single most effective striking style out there, period. I trained at Lou Duva's gym in Fairfield, NJ for a year and a half, four days a week, and learned more about footwork, balance and real world effective technique than in anything else.

Your hands turn into rocks, and when you take off those 16 ounce gloves your hand speed is incredible. When someone throws a punch at you, you're going to instinctively move out of the way (and not throw up some ridiculous arm block like karate would have you do). Boxing put me in the best shape of my life and I would recommend it to anyone.

Wrestling has been mentioned as well, and I'd also highly recommend it though my experience there is limited. Being able to control your opponent is the key to winning.

I mostly agree. When I used to be a PAL instructor I taught Chinese Boxing. One of the things I always did was cross train my guys with the gym boxers. Unlike 95% of "martial artists" boxers actually hit each other. I don't even want to think about all the black belts I know who have never actually been punched in the face one time but believe they are prepared for a fight.

By bringing the Chinese boxers up to the training level of the other boxers they became far more effective. I think this is also the primary reason the MMA has become so popular, it is just a case of people with a martial artists arsenal of techniques training to a higher standard like that of a boxer.

The only part I disagree on is the "hands turn to rocks" thing. This is a weak link for most boxers. They don't condition their hands but at the same time they are capable of generating incredible power. I know more than a few who got into real fights and broke hands and fingers when they used unprotected fists for the first time. During our cross training we had several guys who adopted our hand conditioning techniques. This is one of the areas where real martial artist have an advantage.

[SteyrAUG]

Remember, when you are there grappling with one guy, his friends are there, hitting you with pipes, 2x4s, chains, whatever... That's EVAN

Unfortunately, training locks full speed is something we seldom do, because of the high rate of serious injuries.

Every style by definition has limitations otherwise it is no longer "that style" and even "concept arts" like JKD still have some defining parameters otherwise every person in the world could rightfully call themselves a JKD practitioner.

And as a result of those definitions and limitations, each one can fail under the right circumstances. Boxing/striking methods become almost useless when the fight goes to the ground. Grappling methods are vulnerable at long range and almost useless against multiple opponents (as you noted) and long range striking/kicking methods become almost useless in tight confines like a public restroom.

This is why serious martial artists try to study and practice in all ranges and against a wide variety of styles.

[6933]

Brasilian Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai. You have to know what to do if/when the fights hits the ground. Also, both are great workouts. Just be prepared to be bruised and sore. It's a fact of life if you are training the way you should. I still don't like walking around with a bruised eye; looks like you may have taken an ass whippin'.