Limited to 55gr SP for work, alternative to LE223T1?

[7 RING]

Quote "Do NOT get the Win Ranger 55gr JSP (RA223R) or Fed LE Tac TRU 55gr SP (T223A)!!!"

OK....now you have my attention Doc. What is wrong with these rounds ?
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Has anyone gathered statistical data on police shootings with 55g M193 ball ammunition fired from a 16" carbine? A prior service US Army surgeon told me he operated on several soldiers after a PFC went bonkers on the rifle range and shot several people with his M-16A1. He said the wounds on anyone hit from 15 yards to about 80 yards were really nasty.

If my memory serves me correctly a Sheriff's Deputy in cental Illinois shot an armed suspect with M193 ball about five years ago and it stopped the suspect rapidly. I didn't hear anything about what the Medical Examiner discovered at the autopsy and could not get my hands on any photos.

[ack495]

Quote "Do NOT get the Win Ranger 55gr JSP (RA223R) or Fed LE Tac TRU 55gr SP (T223A)!!!"

OK....now you have my attention Doc. What is wrong with these rounds ?
___________________________________________________________________________________

Has anyone gathered statistical data on police shootings with 55g M193 ball ammunition fired from a 16" carbine? A prior service US Army surgeon told me he operated on several soldiers after a PFC went bonkers on the rifle range and shot several people with his M-16A1. He said the wounds on anyone hit from 15 yards to about 80 yards were really nasty.

If my memory serves me correctly a Sheriff's Deputy in cental Illinois shot an armed suspect with M193 ball about five years ago and it stopped the suspect rapidly. I didn't hear anything about what the Medical Examiner discovered at the autopsy and could not get my hands on any photos.

So Im not Doc, but both rounds exhibit poor penetration through various common barriers. I would not feel good about my ammo if my department used these rounds. See penetration results from both manufacturers:

http://le.atk.com/pdf/223RifleDataBook_vol-1.pdf

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollec...entCatalog.pdf

In regards to M193, as Doc's research and other tests would show, its fragmentation is late, not consistent and does terrible against auto glass. There are much more reliable options out there.

[DocGKR]

What is right about them?

Did you read this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77192?

Did you take a look at the terminal performance of the T223A that ATK/Federal has published: http://le.atk.com/pdf/223RifleDataBook_vol-1.pdf?

Do the RA223R and T223A meet the terminal performance requirements as described here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22323 or in the description of an ideal duty rifle load as stated by SSA Buford Boone of the FBI BRF?

-- Penetration of 12 to 18 inches
-- No impact AOA induced variations
-- Blind to barriers
-- No deviation from shot line after impact
-- Minimal fragmentation
-- Consistent terminal performance from 0 – 300 meters
-- Sufficient accuracy to hit threat targets out to 600 meters

[7 RING]

One thing I have noticed about the listed Winchester round is that the soft point deforms when it is stripped out of my AR magazine and hits the feed ramp on the barrel extension. It makes the round fly through the air like a boat moving through water with a crashed hull and accuracy is unacceptable (for me) at distances beyond 100 yards.

[DocGKR]

It can also cause feeding malfunctions when you shoot 200-300+ rounds without getting a chance to clean the lead build-up off the feed ramps...

[Gewehr3]

Best value on the market: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...tion&key=24448

C4

Do you have the 5.56 Gold Dot?

[C4IGrant]

Do you have the 5.56 Gold Dot?

Not in the 64gr. It is VERY Rare and have never actually seen it.



C4

[DocGKR]

Speer has recently discontinued the 5.56 mm 64 gr Gold Dot, as too many IDIOTS were trying to shoot the 5.56 mm load from crappy rifles with .223 chambers (think Bushmaster, DPMS, and other bottom feeder companies) and then trying to blame Speer for the resulting problems... The 55 gr Gold Dot is still being made in 5.56 mm.

I STRONGLY urge everyone to use a chamber reamer or gauge to ensure their carbine is actually a 5.56 mm chamber, irrespective of who made the weapon and what may be stamped on the barrel. We stick a 5.56 mm chamber reamer into EVERY rifle--you would be surprised at how many rifles do NOT have the correct 5.56 mm chamber, yet whenever their is a problem STUPID agencies/guys always want to blame the ammo when it is in fact their shitty, out of spec rifles...

[topgunpilot20]

What is right about them?

Did you read this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77192?

Did you take a look at the terminal performance of the T223A that ATK/Federal has published: http://le.atk.com/pdf/223RifleDataBook_vol-1.pdf?

Do the RA223R and T223A meet the terminal performance requirements as described here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22323 or in the description of an ideal duty rifle load as stated by SSA Buford Boone of the FBI BRF?

-- Penetration of 12 to 18 inches
-- No impact AOA induced variations
-- Blind to barriers
-- No deviation from shot line after impact
-- Minimal fragmentation
-- Consistent terminal performance from 0 – 300 meters
-- Sufficient accuracy to hit threat targets out to 600 meters

My department has been issuing the Winchester RA223R for the past few years and is now phasing it out to a Federal 62gr bonded JSP. Since they're trying to get rid of their current inventory, they gave me 800 rounds of the RA223R when I requested ammo for an upcoming CSAT rifle class. I have not been able to find any terminal performance information on this round, so I came searching this forum. Your quote above is the only reference I've been able to find specifically regarding the RA223R's terminal performance, but I'm not sure what it means. Are you stating that you have not tested this ammo, or that you have tested it and found it be unsatisfactory?

I'm trying to decide whether to hold on to the RA223R given to me and buy cheaper FMJ to waste on paper for the class or just go ahead and use it if it's not a good terminal ballistic performer anyway.

FWIW, I've heard of the feeding problems JSPs can induce during high round counts, and if I use it at the class, I plan to periodically switch between the JSPs and 500 rounds of FMJ that were also given to me to minimize the lead build up on the feed ramps.

[SWAT Lt.]

I'd go ahead and shoot it up in the class if it were me. It has very shallow penetration overall and is terrible against barriers. The good news is your new duty round is much better ammo, especially if it is the TBBC.