The fundamentals

[rob_s]

I've been meaning to post this for awhile, but a video in this thread made me finally pull the trigger.

Is shooting the same as fighting? If not, are the fundamentals of each the same? If not, how are they different?

If you had a friend that you knew would be in a gunfight in an hour, how would you train him? What about 24 hours? What about a week? a month? a year?

[ZRH]

Saw the post in the other thread and I was wondering if you meant fighting like physical fighting or fighting as in tactical engagements.

[rob_s]

"gunfighting".

If you had a friend that you knew would be in a gunfight...

[ZRH]

"gunfighting".

I probably deserved that. In my mind both of those are aspects of a "gunfight." Shooting is part of the physical part, tactics is part of metal part. Could also talk about "cultivating a warrior mindset" etc.

To answer the original part, I believe shooting is part of what goes into a firefight. If you cant shoot there's no point in even having a firearm. Another large part in my mind is stress acclimatisation.

The disconnect [to me] is the training of skills (tools) and training situations (circumstances). Some people you can give them all the tools and everything falls into place in practice. Some people have to be taught what to do in X theoretical situation to be effective.

[Disclosure: I don't teach people anything in real life or in my imagination. I'm just not good at it.]

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Mindset.

Wack jobs that go on shooting sprees never seem to have any training, but they are focused and committed. I bring that up just to point out that you don't need a lot of training it seems to operate a gun and shoot people. Now whack jobs almost always go after unarmed people, and I assume your fictional friend (not that you don't have real friends ) will be facing armed foes, but I think the same idea applies.

One of the things that surprised me in talking with Travis during a class was getting yourself amped up before running a drill, versus mechanically running a drill. Just a little bit mental masturbation of the fight/flight mechanism really helped with performance.

Of course, the old comments about not showing up at all, or only showing up with a rifle, and your friends with rifles applies . Some basic gunhandling and tactics just to fill the time and make him more confident.

But instilling in him that he is the baddest MoFo in the room and he WILL win is where I would spend my time talking to him.

[M4Fundi]

To me my Father's rules on fighting can apply to gunfighting

Rules
1. Avoid fight if you can
2. Never get in a shoving match
3. If you can't avoid the fight ALWAYS throw the first punch
4. Always whip the shit out of them so bad they never want to fight you again
5. If you're down and losing reach down their britches and grab them by the balls. No one can hit you and defend their balls at the same time! They will quit and not want to fight you again!

These have always worked for me everytime. I have only had to use #5 once and the guy froze and said, "you win"

I think these can be applied successfully to gunfighting

[CQC.45]

My $.02

To borrow another individual's phrase: "The operative word in 'gunfight' is not 'gun', it is 'fight'".

There are alot of factors that go into a "fight", but since you specified gun fight, I would say the following:

Mindset: This is huge, in any kind of fight. I wont go into what it means here (I started another thread on that a while ago that became derailed rather quickly), but it is imperative that one is mentally prepared.

Skillset: One must have an adequate skillset in using a firearm in a Defensive situation (not IPSC, etc.). The skills learned are paramount in winning. Also want to point out that the fundamentals are by far the most important. Too many guys watch a couple of Magpul DVDs and want to start doing ninja rolls when they should be doing ball and dummy drills (not discrediting Magpul at all). The advance stuff is great if that person is TRULY at that level, but fundamentals must be mastered and re-mastered first.

Another point I would like to make in skillset is the importance of FoF training (Simmuition, etc.). This is a huge part of the skillset that most people are very lacking in. I can imagine that the dynamics change greatly when you are up against a human opponent, instead of a paper target...Admittedly, I have not been able to partake in this type of training, though I would like to. It is sad how difficult (impossible?) it is for civvys to obtain these type of training tools...

Just a few thoughts.

[CQC.45]

To me my Father's rules on fighting can apply to gunfighting

Rules
1. Avoid fight if you can
2. Never get in a shoving match
3. If you can't avoid the fight ALWAYS throw the first punch
4. Always whip the shit out of them so bad they never want to fight you again
5. If you're down and losing reach down their britches and grab them by the balls. No one can hit you and defend their balls at the same time! They will quit and not want to fight you again!

These have always worked for me everytime. I have only had to use #5 once and the guy froze and said, "you win"

I think these can be applied successfully to gunfighting

Also want to point out that while it is good from a pure tactics perspective, if an LEO decides that you didnt 100% adhere to #1, #3 is what lands you in trouble.

[SouthNarc]

I think shooting is a part of gunfighting just like punching is a part of boxing. Without slips, bobs, weaves, and footwork though a guy who can just hit hard and fast is generally an incomplete fighter and will get owned by the superior tactician.

I personally feel that if firearms training is not underscored contextually and never adds the human element of a living breathing adversary, then one is really not that far removed from a video game. Generally the most uncooperative our targets get in firearms training is when a staple pops out and the target flaps at you in the wind.

[UCoperator]

Remember the rules of gunfighting.

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Your life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

9.5 Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

23. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a ".4"

I know, but

Given an hour to teach a friend how to gunfight.... I'd have to focus on getting his head right. The saying goes:

Gunfighting practice is 75% physical 25% mental. Gunfighting is 75% mental 25% physical.

I think Napoleon said, the mental is to the physical as 3 to 1.

Then, if he had no prior firearms experience, show him how the gun works. The only things he really needs to know are how to make it go BOOM, how to reload it so it can continue to go BOOM, and an understanding of trigger control.

I heard a quote from somewhere, I can't remember where, it's not mine so I won't take credit for it, but it goes something like, "There are no such things as advanced techniques; just the smooth, perfect execution of the basics."

So, in just an hour, I'd help understand how the gun functions, how to keep it functioning, and then how to get his head right. Combat breathing exercises, winning mindset, and the all important, "Jedi Mind Trick".

Given a year, I'd drill his mindset and get him used to gunfighting around cover, in different positions, in different scenarios, and lots of trigger/range time. Training to fight to win.

The ultimate goal of fighting is achieving unconscious competence. Or training the body to second nature so the mind can focus on the fight and you control both.

Given the time constraints the goal remains the same for my friend. Getting his mind right, then getting his body to do what the mind commands.

Allow me to share a couple quotes and then I'll be done:

If you're going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do. --General Patton.

In the end, it is not about the "hardware," it is about the "software." Amateurs talk about hardware or equipment, professionals talk about software or training and mental readiness. --Lt. Grossman

Professional protectors already know a lot about maintaining physical readiness, but it's the mind that must be first properly prepared, the mind that controls the hands, arms, eyes, and ears,. There are strategies available to help prepare warriors, based upon knowing how the body responds to lethal combat, what happens to your blood flow, your muscles, judgment, memory, vision, and your hearing when someone is trying to kill you. Police officers, soldiers, and protectors can learn how to keep going even if shot, and how to prepare the mind and body for survival rather than defeat. --Gavin DeBecker

People say I am still around because I have a lot of heart, but I know all the heart in the world couldn't have helped me if I wasn't physically fit. --Jimmy Connors.