Irons only in a rifle course?

[pointblank4445]

I recently received some specifics on a week-long rifle course my dept. is sending me to. One of the pre-req's for this is prior military experience or completion of a basic LE patrol rifle course, so this isn't intended for beginners. I was surprised to see on the paperwork: "Iron sights only, optics prohibited" in bold, black letters. While I fully support the ideology that one must first master their irons, I can't help but find this somewhat odd. Standardization perhaps? With more and more people using optics and limited departmental training, i would think that this would be an ideal time for some to test their setups and learn their limits. Anyway, I just felt this was interesting and had potential to bring some good chatter on here....enjoy!

[TOrrock]

VA State Police issue every Trooper a Colt 6921, slick.

No optics, no lights, standard USGI pt. parade sling.

[pointblank4445]

VA State Police issue every Trooper a Colt 6921, slick.

No optics, no lights, standard USGI pt. parade sling.

I wish we could be that lucky. Unless you use your pre-approved rifle, you have a bushmaster forced upon you.....complete with a horrid 3pt/adjustable/convertible abortion of a sling.

I would estimate that roughly 70-75% of the local officers (not counting state and federal) use a personally owned AR-15's. If an officer is issued a rifle, likely as not it's a stock M16A1 from the govt. loan-out program (the acronym/name escapes me). And judging by some of the franken-gun abominations i've seen recently, a lot of guys need a rude awakening on what does and does not need to be on their rifles.

[lewis]

The KY department of criminal justice training insists on irons only in their patrol rifle and patrol rifle instructor courses. They even had an hour long class where they explained all the reasons optics had no place on patrol rifles (sigh).

That hour damn near ruined an otherwise good course.

You need to learn to shoot your irons and refresh yourself with them from time to time, BUT, facts are facts and it is much easier to shoot faster and more accurately with proper quality optics.

Go to the class and learn all you can. Keep what is good and disgard what isn't.

I will always go to a class the department is paying for. Nothing says I have to do what they teach in the class if it's stupid.

[markm]

I was surprised to see on the paperwork: "Iron sights only, optics prohibited" in bold, black letters.

I'm the opposite. I was shocked to see that our Sheriff's Office allowed the use of Red Dot Sights.

Granted you need to qual with them... but with all the fuX0red up mounts, junk knock off sights, numb nuts users, and complications with getting an RDS right... I was surprised that they'd even bother messing with the ass ache.

[az doug]

I'm the opposite. I was shocked to see that our Sheriff's Office allowed the use of Red Dot Sights.

Granted you need to qual with them... but with all the fuX0red up mounts, junk knock off sights, numb nuts users, and complications with getting an RDS right... I was surprised that they'd even bother messing with the ass ache.

They limit which RDS you can use. You are not allowed to use any of the knock off or lower end RDS and you must have co-witnessing back up sights.

To the OP, who is the instructor and where are you taking the course.
One of our local guys, markm knows him, prefers that you use iron sights and in an instructor course required all students to use them.

[RyanB]

Paul Howes class?

I intend to take my next class with irons so I can articulate their inferiority from a better base of experience.

[Surf]

When you come to our unit you start from zero with basic firearms. We assume nothing from anyone's past experience. This standardizes and ensures that everyone has the exact same knowledge that we are trying to teach. Invariably this makes the progression for learning for the entire group much easier and the entire group progress much quicker and smoother. No need to jump around and spot teach or cover things if someone is not up to speed. If you are "sound", going over basics never hurts, invariably people are not as sound on their basics as they tend to believe they are. Everyone can benefit from basic fundamentals work.

When you hit the basic rifle portion of the course, it is a week long course that uses iron sights only the entire week. Fundamentals are highly stressed. You might get some pissing and moaning at the start from guys used to running optics, but invariably they are far far better shooters with a much more sound foundation of the basics. They invariably take their red dot shooting to levels that they didn't think possible once we hit the advanced, combat / HRT shooting blocks of instruction.

Even though I have been teaching the irons classes for some time even when I teach the week long course, I get very good benefit from going back and revisiting irons. I would have no issues taking the course just because I couldn't run a red dot.

Don't get me wrong as I don't think you should roll full time with irons and indeed a red dot is a no-brainer for a rifle, especially a critical incident rifle, however irons training has great merits and benefits IMO.

[pointblank4445]

I'm the opposite. I was shocked to see that our Sheriff's Office allowed the use of Red Dot Sights.

Granted you need to qual with them... but with all the fuX0red up mounts, junk knock off sights, numb nuts users, and complications with getting an RDS right... I was surprised that they'd even bother messing with the ass ache.

Yeah.....that is a problem that I see too often. Dead EOTechs and crappy 4x knock offs are way too common. Again, i've got no issue with running irons as I highly doubt most (including myself) would opt to run irons only for all 5 days.

[markm]

Yeah... If I were in charge.. I'd strongly discourage RDS usage...

But only allow Aimpoints in quality mounts installed by the Department armory.

I mean... how many times have I shot with someone with an out of adjustment mount... a mount that came loose, or an RDS that's fickering on and off due to a battery issue or improperly installed battery???

TOO MANY TIMES.