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Thread: Switching to a Trust

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    Absolutely, and where this could get interesting in a technical/legal sense is when you invite your spouse or son to come out to the range with you to shoot your new RLT-registered suppressor which is attached to your individually-registered SBR. We're admittedly splitting some incredibly stupid hairs here, but under the law, your family members would only be half-legal.

    Lest this sound completely farfetched, we would do well to remember that an NFA owner is really only one unfortunate malfunction or richochet away from scrutiny when he's out on the firing line, and even the best-intentioned interpretation of the law would still result in problems if the method of registration precluded use of the weapon by a family member or friend. An RLT allows you to designate who is/is not an authorized user under the law, which is something that no individual transfer can do.

    To me, the other real advantage of the RLT approach is not that it allows you to avoid the up-front paperwork, fingerprints and signatures associated with an individual transfer, but rather that it involves less complication and expense over the long term when it comes time to pass the weapon(s) along to your progeny.

    AC
    That is exactly why I was thinking of transferring the SBR to a trust. I don't have any issues getting all the paper work done for a individual transfer. I was mainly looking to minimize the governments interference with my family in regards to the NFA weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by kdcgrohl View Post
    AC, this confuses me a bit as I've always been under the impression that anyone could legally shoot my individually registered NFA items under my supervision. Is this not the case? Thanks.
    As far as the ATF is concerned, you are the only one legally allowed to have the NFA item in your possession. In fact, if I remember correctly they(family members) can't even have access to it at home. I could be remembering wrong thought, so check out the ATF site.

    Like markm stated in a previous post, as long as you are not bringing attention to yourself by way of illegal activity you should be OK.
    Last edited by OrdnanceCorp; 04-02-11 at 11:05.
    Mark

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdcgrohl View Post
    AC, this confuses me a bit as I've always been under the impression that anyone could legally shoot my individually registered NFA items under my supervision. Is this not the case? Thanks.
    I really meant to say "could" or "would potentially" there, but I'm really trying to avoid heading down the path of delving into the legal meaning of terms like "access," "presence" and "possession," because these tend to degrade into some industrial-grade tin-foil hat discussions.

    Most serious students of the law would view your scenario as wholly permissible, and I would agree with that interpretation -- nothwithstanding some oft-quoted case law to the contrary. The problem becomes one of context (i.e. where are you and what are you doing while they have the weapon), and my larger point was that RLT transfers allow you to remove such questions by specifically authorizing others to exercise control over the weapon(s) in question.

    AC

  3. #13
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    Yes disregard my last post as I do not wish to get into a discussion of the what the meaning/intent of the law is. I really just want to make their(ATF)interpretation of the law, whatever it may be, meaningless. That is why I will at some point put my personal transfer SBR on my trust. Mainly it will make it easy for my family to keep the NFA items in the event of my untimely demise!
    Last edited by OrdnanceCorp; 04-02-11 at 11:22.
    Mark

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrdnanceCorp View Post
    ... Yes no one really cares, I am well aware of that, unless of course I die...then the government will be in my affairs. I would rather my son and/or wife not have to pay the tax and go through the BS with the ATF. Hence, the trust vs personal transfer issue I am trying to resolve JIC.
    If you are referring to an Inheritance Tax then I have no idea what your state laws may be. If you are referring to the $200.00 individual Transfer Tax, then no, your heir would not have to pay it, even if it were registered to you on a form 4. An inheritance is tax free. Yes they would have to fill out the paperwork, fingerprint cards, etc., but they would not have to pay the $200.00 transfer tax.

  5. #15
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    That's what I was going to say. I believe it's a Form 5?

    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    If you are referring to an Inheritance Tax then I have no idea what your state laws may be. If you are referring to the $200.00 individual Transfer Tax, then no, your heir would not have to pay it, even if it were registered to you on a form 4. An inheritance is tax free. Yes they would have to fill out the paperwork, fingerprint cards, etc., but they would not have to pay the $200.00 transfer tax.



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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    That's what I was going to say. I believe it's a Form 5?

    Yes.

    And a beneficiary of a trust, the son, would also have to do this anyway when the trust ends.

    The trust does not make it easier to transfer guns to the last line in the trust.

    The son would still have to do a form 5 on every gun and put them into his own name, after you and your wife are dead.

    The only benefits of trust are that multiple family members can posses the guns and it gets around the fingerprinting and CLEO signature.
    Last edited by scottryan; 04-02-11 at 17:35.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryan View Post
    The trust does not make it easier to transfer guns to the last line in the trust.
    I gladly acknowledge my error. I've generally believed (but obviously never tested) that it would be a more streamlined affair if the Form 5 petitioner was already a named party in the current owning entity, which of course, isn't the case on an individual transfer.

    As the law exists today, that appears to make no difference, though I'm curious if it might help in some way to innoculate family members against further future restrictions. While that sounds logical enough, it is admittedly pure groundless conjecture on my part, and the thing that I'm really failing to account for here is the fact that the RLT ceases to exist after the deaths of the trustee(s) who established it.

    Interesting, to say the least.

    AC

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    That's what I was going to say. I believe it's a Form 5?
    Yes, it is a Form 5, the same one Law Enforcement Agencies use for their tax free transfers.

  9. #19
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    Hmmm...Well then. I guess then the only thing that is easier is that the form 5 doesn't require fingerprints or CLEO signoff then?
    What do you make of this from the NFA handbook?
    9.4.2.2 Transfers of NFA firearms to persons other than an individual or an FFL and
    special (occupational) taxpayer. Section 479.85 of the Code of Federal Regulations requires
    the ATF Form 4 or Form 5 application to properly identify the transferee. Although transfers to
    natural persons (individuals) must include a recent photograph, duplicate fingerprint cards, and a
    certification from law enforcement, the NFA also defines a person to include a partnership,
    company, association, trust, estate, or corporation. The requirements for fingerprints,
    photographs, and the law enforcement certificate specified in § 479.85 are not applicable for
    transferee who is not an individual.


    This appears to say that my heirs would have to get all(fingerprint,CLEO) that would be required for new transfer. If that is the case, I guess it really doesn't matter whether it is from a trust or individual transfer as long as he is allowed to use form 5 for tax free transfer.
    So as far as transfering after my death it won't matter if I leave the SBR as an individual transfer as he still has to fill out the form 5 either way. I suppose at that time he could add it to a trust anyway if he wanted?
    9.5.3.1 Distributions to heirs. Although these distributions are not treated as “transfers” for
    purposes of the NFA, Form 5 must be filed by an executor or administrator to register a firearm
    to a lawful heir and the form must be approved by ATF prior to distribution to the heir. The
    form should be filed as soon as possible. However, ATF will allow a reasonable time to arrange
    for the transfer. This generally should be done before probate is closed. When a firearm is being
    transferred to an individual heir, his or her fingerprints on FBI Forms FD-258 must accompany
    the transfer application. The application will be denied if the heir’s receipt or possession of the
    firearm would violate Federal, State, or local law. The law enforcement certification on the form
    need not be completed. The form should also be accompanied by documentation showing the
    executor’s or administrator’s authority to distribute the firearm as well as the heir’s entitlement
    to the firearm. Distributions to heirs should not be made until Forms 5 are approved. Executors
    and administrators are not required to have estate firearms registered to them prior to distribution
    to lawful heirs.


    So is the trust considered a "individual" like they seem to say in 9.4.2.2 and then requires CLEO sign off. It seems to say in 9.5.3.1 that CLEO isn't needed?

    I just want things to be setup for the least painful transfer to my son and daughter as you never know when your time is up.
    Thanks for all the replies, they have been a big help!
    Mark

  10. #20
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    Reading that I would think a Trust is treated as an Individual, but ATF has been approving them without the CLEO sign off. I don't have a Trust yet, so I really cannot speak to it.

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