NFA wants my Schedule A for Transfere ???????

[Trim2L]

Mark (bookhound) from PSI posted this on silencer talk to the thread I had there.

Well, Allen just resolved this with our new inspector, Nancy Flanigan. For the record Nancy has been VERY pleasant and responsive. ATF's legal folks are now saying that since the Declaration references the Schedule A, the Schedule A MUST be included.

You can no longer send just a Certification of Trust or Declaration of Trust without the Schedule A. You can redact any items on the Schedule A that are not NFA items. You need to initial next to the redacted items.

Honestly, since they only want NFA items on the Schedula A it sounds more to me like they are trying to either make sure people are updating their Trusts properly with the NFA items or that they are trying to use that information to verify their NFA registry. Either way, they did say you could redact non-NFA items on the Schedule A.


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Now for Mark's editorial (not PSI's view; just Mark's opinion):

I think the Schedule A is still no one's business. The Declaration of Trust properly notarized is proof of the legal entity without having to disclose the assets of that legal entity. The legal purpose of a Certification of Trust document is specifically to obfuscate details (people's names, property, etc.) of the Trust while still proving the legal Trust exists. That this legal document not be viewed sufficient is, to me, not correct. But, what are ya gonna do? We play by the rules that are made up as we go. The NFA branch folks are at the mercy of their legal advisors.

Them allowing us to hide all assets on the Schedule A except for NFA items makes me wonder why they want to see the NFA items. It can only be for the two reasons I mentioned earlier.

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There ya go, boys and girls. Better send in them Schedule As!

Mark
_________________
Polite Society, Inc.
FFL/SOT

If they are allowing you to redact assets in the trust then how can they legally mandate you leave the NFA items visible? If it were me I'd redact the whole thing and send it in.

[eodinert]

The whole point of a trust is that you don't have to tell anyone what you've got. I would redact everything, too.

I've got a form 4 (on a trust) in the pipe as we speak, and I have not been informed of a need to send additional paperwork yet.

[keatsabn]

recieved my Form 4 back approved and the ATF lawyer says that they must be able to VALIDATE your trust that is why they want it so they say. I think that there records are so ****ED up this is a way to update there records.

[Madsmiley]

recieved my Form 4 back approved and the ATF lawyer says that they must be able to VALIDATE your trust that is why they want it so they say. I think that there records are so ****ED up this is a way to update there records.

And just how is this supposed to validate anything. Thats the purpose of a Certification of Trust...

[Don Robison]

What exactly are they validating with the schedule A; other than if you transfered ownership of previous NFA items to the trust?

[SuicideHz]

yeah, that's what they want to make sure of like it's any of their business.

It's not their business how you drive your car or how your Trust gets it's paperwork in order after the fact.

But, that's what they want to see most likely.

I do know that it took me "some time" to fire up Quicken and add my first item...

Come to think of it- that's on an old HDD that crashed. What do I do now?

[Bob, Esq.]

First thing, calm down. The reason that they need to see the Schedule "A' is because the trust document itself references the Schedule "A". The second reason is because in order to validly establish the trust you have to fund it with something. Typically the attorney will list something like "$10.00" in the schedule "A" of your trust. IU can't speak for what some of the DIY programs do. So the Schedule "A" is a necessary part of the trust and hence is required by ATF. There is no requirement that you add each NFA item to the schedule "A". Most people never amend their Schedule "A". However if you want to go right ahead. The Form 4 or 1 is the proof of the trust ownership of the item. And no you cant add an NFA item to the Schedule "A" before you get the form back from ATF. The transfer has to be approved first. The ATF has the right to know what ever NFA items you have as an individual, what makes you think that because you use a trust that they don't have the right to see on the trust what NFA assets you have listed. Hell, if they want to know they can always look it up on the computer or schedule an inspection with you if they want to. The Form 4 & Form 1 are tax documents and as such are private as well as anything you attach to the forms. If you don't want them to know what else you have in the trust, then don't list it on the Schedule A and they will never know or set up a separate NFA only trust from the one you have your general assets in. I am the attorney who wrote the small arms review article on NFA trusts and am the one who can be blamed for starting the recent trust explosion, so I know what I am talking about here. Long story short, the AFT can ask for what they want and can generally change their minds when they want, within reason. If you don't want to play their game, then don't and don't expect to get your approved forms. I started doing the trusts for clients because it is a simpler/cheaper route than going corporate and has some benefits over individual ownership. Folks are really trying to make this whole thing more difficult than it has to be. When sending a Form 1 or 4 send in a copy of the whole trust (which includes the schedule A) and you are good to go. And lastly on using a store bought form or program for your trust. It may help you legally establish the trust and you may be O.K. But you generally never find out there is a problem until it is too late. Have one on my desk right now that a fellow did himself and if he were to die, the testamentary provisions in this one would be invalid under florida law (meaning that they would not go the beneficiaries he had selected).

Bob Howell, Esq., FFL/SOT

[Mike729]

Hey Bob, good to see you here adding clarity to the NFA world. This thread was one of the reasons I called you a couple of weeks ago.

Thanks for keeping us informed and educated.

[Madsmiley]

First thing, calm down. The reason that they need to see the Schedule "A' is because the trust document itself references the Schedule "A". The second reason is because in order to validly establish the trust you have to fund it with something. Typically the attorney will list something like "$10.00" in the schedule "A" of your trust. IU can't speak for what some of the DIY programs do. So the Schedule "A" is a necessary part of the trust and hence is required by ATF. There is no requirement that you add each NFA item to the schedule "A". Most people never amend their Schedule "A". However if you want to go right ahead. The Form 4 or 1 is the proof of the trust ownership of the item. And no you cant add an NFA item to the Schedule "A" before you get the form back from ATF. The transfer has to be approved first. The ATF has the right to know what ever NFA items you have as an individual, what makes you think that because you use a trust that they don't have the right to see on the trust what NFA assets you have listed. Hell, if they want to know they can always look it up on the computer or schedule an inspection with you if they want to. The Form 4 & Form 1 are tax documents and as such are private as well as anything you attach to the forms. If you don't want them to know what else you have in the trust, then don't list it on the Schedule A and they will never know or set up a separate NFA only trust from the one you have your general assets in. I am the attorney who wrote the small arms review article on NFA trusts and am the one who can be blamed for starting the recent trust explosion, so I know what I am talking about here. Long story short, the AFT can ask for what they want and can generally change their minds when they want, within reason. If you don't want to play their game, then don't and don't expect to get your approved forms. I started doing the trusts for clients because it is a simpler/cheaper route than going corporate and has some benefits over individual ownership. Folks are really trying to make this whole thing more difficult than it has to be. When sending a Form 1 or 4 send in a copy of the whole trust (which includes the schedule A) and you are good to go. And lastly on using a store bought form or program for your trust. It may help you legally establish the trust and you may be O.K. But you generally never find out there is a problem until it is too late. Have one on my desk right now that a fellow did himself and if he were to die, the testamentary provisions in this one would be invalid under florida law (meaning that they would not go the beneficiaries he had selected).

Bob Howell, Esq., FFL/SOT

Good info as always Bob,yes youre the one my wife has to blame thanks to a thread on Sigforums

For those of us that have gone the DIY route,how much trouble is it to have a lawyer come back and bullet proof it??Whats the typical fee for something like this??

[Bob, Esq.]

It depends upon the person you talk to. Alot of attorneys won't review someone elses documents, particularly if they were self prepared. The liability is too great given the amount of cash you can charge for the time. As for me, I generally dont review self prepared documents for this very reason. The cost would be more than if I had just done the trust to begin with. The problem, more often than not, is not if the trust is validly created. The usually problem lies with the disposition of the assets in the event of the incapacity or death of the grantor.

Bob Howell, Esq., FFL/SOT