how good is the Barrett M468?

[paulosantos]

"It's about politics" has become a throw-down phrase for the losers of various technical trials since the beginning of time. The bottom line is not what is technically more efficient. It's what is possible under the current conditions.

I stand by what I said before. Those folks pushing "gimmick" solutions, like gas piston guns and new calibers need to a) fit them within an acceptable (to the Army) system and b) find a cost-effective way to completely replace the current ammo supply pipeline, knowing that a significant part of the fighting force will need to instantly change over. And the old method of phase-transitioning the Guard and Reserves is no longer feasible, because they are also front-line troops. Plus, you need to c) find a new squad automatic weapon as well (not a big loss, in my book).

That doesn't change the fact that the 5.56mm cartridge is a satisfactory cartridge for engaging targets where 99% of all fighting is done, which is in the 200 yards or closer ranges. And THAT is the "political" problem the 6.8SPC faces.

I know you like the cartridge. I like it too. For the civilian hobbyist, it turns the AR-platform into a "one gun does all" platform. I'm a member on your web-site, and am probably going to go 6.8 SPC-only once I return to the states. (I'm currently in "gun-friendly" Germany.)

Oh, in my civilian life, I write training scenarios for the CTC in Hohenfels, and as an Army Reservist I currently do Logistics, used to be a CAV guy.

We disagree and that is that. Take care.

[M4Guru]

You lost me. Where did I say anything about Iraq?

That's just for your general knowledge so you don't put out any more bad information on the subject.

[paulosantos]

That's just for your general knowledge so you don't put out any more bad information on the subject.

Right. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[KevinB]

Oh boy, another "my SF buddy says..."

He lied to you.

The Group that drove the 6.8 train (mine...) had already stopped their rotations to Afghanistan before the 6.8 was tested. It never went to Iraq.
As for the Barrett, why would you pay $2700 for a Stag with an ARMS rail? If I wanted a 6.8 I'd go with a Noveske or LMT MRP.

agreed.

I think 6.8 is a good cartridge - and given there are some SAW's that have been reworked to test it - that it is viable.
However its a logistical nightmare to replace outside a fleet weapon replacement program.

If 6.8's going to fly then adopt the Hk418 (that what we are calling it right now right?) across the board and be done with it.

Mike Haugen wrote a good piece on the 6.8 back when he was S7 for 1SFG.
Its not a viable SF only round, in the same way peoples Lone Actor Red Dawn wet dreams are not viable.

[caporider]

Frankly, I don't care whether Big Green or FMF or DHS or KBR or whomever ever adopts 6.8SPC. It is a great do-all caliber from 0-300 meters and a good caliber from 300-600 meters (still better than 5.56). That, and continued availability of parts, ammo, and handloading supplies are all that matter to me. It is more of a hobbyist/tinkerer round (lots of chrono testing, handload tweaking, recording actual drops at distance, arguing about SAAMI specs, etc) and that suits me just fine. I end up knowing exactly what loads work best in my rifles, which again, suits me just fine.

Besides, if 6.8 does die out, it's not twenty minutes' work to swap back to 5.56 on the AR platform.

[M4Guru]

I like the 6.8, but logistics killed it before it had a chance.

My only concern is I have seen bolts fail a little more frequently at the lugs. Not a concern for most, though. If you look at a 6.8 bolt it is a lot thinner at the lugs to fit the bigger round.

[120mm]

Which is why I would most definitely recommend introducing an entirely new family of weapons systems based on a common round. I'm wondering if you could sell a 6.5 - 7.0mm round to replace both 5.56 and 7.62, and get it done on a "commonality" basis.

And as to M4Guru's comment about bolts, you rapidly get to the point where there is little benefit to improving in caliber before you just go to entirely new weapons families, and whereas the 6.8 was all about adapting to the M4 platform, whether 6.8SPC becomes the round you want to stick with once you have to develop and buy new guns, anyway.

[paulosantos]

To M4Guru: I apologize. It wasn't an SF unit, it was a Seal team unit. I sent you an IM with the whole info. Everything else I said was correct. Again, I apologize since I was incorrect.

[DocGKR]

Hldhard,

Which test data are you “very well acquainted with”--Navy, FBI, JSWB-IPT, Marine, or are you referring to some other testing like the recent TSWG report?

After verifying his LE credentials, I indeed provided “paulosantos” some restricted LE data on 6.8 mm which you or may not have seen; obviously neither that information nor any posted on the internet is classified; your Google comment does not seem germane...

Carrying more than one type of ammo is not something new. In WWII, my grandfather related how he and the guys he was with in Africa, Italy, and France carried both ball and M2 “blacktip” AP ammo for their M1 Garands and BAR’s. I’ve read reports from the Pacific theater stating the same thing. Likewise, in Southeast Asia, my father’s generation frequently carried a couple types of ammo--frequently ball and a bit of tracer. In the last several years, many of the SOF personnel I’ve worked with have reported doing the same thing OCONUS, including folks from a couple of SF groups. I’ve discussed why we’ve chosen to carry two types of ammo in our organization. If you want to “kind of question me” about this, I'm right here.

I do agree with you and have always taught that hitting the target is the most important factor…terminal performance does not enter the picture until after mindset, training, and reliable weapons systems have all been addressed. Nonetheless, weapon system terminal performance is something that eventually needs to be assessed and reported on, in order to have a thorough and professional understanding of various systems' potential capabilities.

Now there are a few individuals here who know me and have worked with me, however, to the best of my knowledge you and I have not served together, have not trained together, and don’t know each other personally or professionally. Thus, I am not clear how you feel you are qualified to judge my level of experience one way or another.

[hldhard]

Carrying more than one type of ammo is not something new. In WWII, my grandfather related how he and the guys he was with in Africa, Italy, and France carried both ball and M2 “blacktip” AP ammo for their M1 Garands and BAR’s. I’ve read reports from the Pacific theater stating the same thing. Likewise, in Southeast Asia, my father’s generation frequently carried a couple types of ammo--frequently ball and a bit of tracer. In the last several years, many of the SOF personnel I’ve worked with have reported doing the same thing OCONUS, including folks from a couple of SF groups. I’ve discussed why we’ve chosen to carry two types of ammo in our organization. If you want to “kind of question me” about this, I'm right here.

The problem I have with what your saying is everything you state is second hand, impossible to verify. This is a perfect example of everything that is wrong with these Forums.
Read what your asking. No one is saying if it's new or old. You cant get any more broad then just saying different types of Ammo. Is it in the same Mag? different caliber? different weapon? Just what exactly is there in your post to respond to. No one said it was never done before. Do's that make it a good idea, "they did it"
Then you back it up with, I read, I was told, a Generation did this, SF people I worked with. Then you end it with a statement about mixing Tracer in with Ball Ammo. Tracer is suppose to be mixed with Ball.
I'm sorry there is nothing in your post that I would even know where to begin with a response.
Just me here. In all my years in SF I never seen, heard of anyone carrying different ammo for their Primary weapon. For the purpose of loading these different types of Ammo as the situation changed. In the middle of a Gun Fight.
oh, Tracer doesn't count. This is going to become another Lemas, DS Armor thread if were not careful. People need to stop with this second hand info. Everyone needs to stay in their lane. Won't see any post from me in threads talking about AK'S. I never used one enough for anything other then to become familare with it.
Have a good day.