"Marksmanship Matters:Let Soldiers Shoot" in the May 2011 American Rifleman

[R-762wt]

Interesting thread. I was in the USMC from 04'-08' in an 03 MOS and basically will echo the same sentiment about the round counts and quality training being sub par for guys in the infantry and other "trigger puller" MOS'es .

I will add one more issue to the training/marksmanship deficiency topic. I was in a unit where we were not starved for ammo or quality training, BUT we were lacking range time and more frequent opportunities to shoot. We might do a shooting package where we shot 1,000 rounds a day for a week, but then wouldn't go to the range for 3 months. So after that week you would be on the ball, but your skills would begin to drastically diminish until the next range session.

It was even worse for the snipers in the teams who might attend a civilian run school or USMC program on a semi-annual basis and then be expected to deploy with having that as their only trigger time. Before deploying I remember asking many of the snipers a no BS question of at what distance they thought they could achieve a first round impact (under battle field conditions). The most common answer was right around the 500yard mark. Most attributed this to a pure lack of "quality" trigger time.

Now that I have moved into the 2nd CivDiv, I find that the frequency with which I am able to shoot has increased, while my round count is considerably lower. I consider myself a much better shooter across the board now than I was in the USMC. I am now able to be more consistent with my manipulations and accuracy. I will also go on to say that I have gotten a lot out of shooting competitions in therms of shooting from cover, moving targets, unconventional shooting positions, and learning from more efficient shooters.

A high round count might not be the only aspect of this problem. Frequency of trigger time and the quality of that trigger time are going to be two of the other big factors that play into the marksmanship equation.

[variablebinary]

Anyone else see this article by Barrett Tillman? Begins on P. 54 of the current issue.

Interesting stuff in here:

• A Regular Army light infantryman should fire about 1,200 rounds a year
• His Guard and Reserve colleagues should expend 660 rouns
• for "plain vanilla" soldiers... ...the specified annual expenditure is 490 rounds for active and 294 for Guard and Reserve
• train a rifleman going to war with 58 rounds of ammunition - 18 to zero and 40 to qualify on the pop-up target range

Lots more that doesn't distill down to bullet points.

While nice, more trigger never ever happen.

I literally have to beg left and right to get in on tactical training sessions with other units. Thankfully, most people in my unit could give two shits about tactics and guns, so the budget allows me interesting opportunities just because no one else wants to bother.

I can comfortably say that 90% of my unit shoots about 70 rounds a year tops, and not a drop more in their off time.

Hell, even 200 rounds a year on a KD range, and 200 rounds during MOUT a year would be a HUGE step forward.

[Smuckatelli]

I will add one more issue to the training/marksmanship deficiency topic. I was in a unit where we were not starved for ammo or quality training, BUT we were lacking range time and more frequent opportunities to shoot. We might do a shooting package where we shot 1,000 rounds a day for a week, but then wouldn't go to the range for 3 months. So after that week you would be on the ball, but your skills would begin to drastically diminish until the next range session.

This goes back to what I posted earlier.....it all rests with the 3 shop. Locking on ranges is difficult but not impossible.

[R-762wt]

This goes back to what I posted earlier.....it all rests with the 3 shop. Locking on ranges is difficult but not impossible.

I think a better way to put it is difficult and impractical.

I know we had to have out range request in 120-90 days prior to going to the range. That still leaves troops in the 3-6 month shooting cycle. This still doesn't account for the guys who will fall through the cracks because they were going to some BS (insert required military course here) while the rest of the platoon was shooting. Moving at a 3-6 month pace is not efficient.

It would be more practical if the military structured shooting related training like the Blackwater or SOTG. Where the logistics are taken care of by the trainers/staff at the range. Cut the 3 shop out of the equation. Have courses that are constantly running and if there is space available then walk on shooters can be excepted in a matter of weeks or days.

[Smuckatelli]

It would be more practical if the military structured shooting related training like the Blackwater or SOTG. Where the logistics are taken care of by the trainers/staff at the range. Cut the 3 shop out of the equation. Have courses that are constantly running and if there is space available then walk on shooters can be excepted in a matter of weeks or days.

That is the real kicker to this problem. The 3 could handle ranges exactly like you discribed above coordinating with the 4 is easy as is range control.

This is how I ran the training at MCSF Co Rota from 98-01. The Platoon Sergeants didn't have to do anything except have the platoon present for transport. It was only company sized but the guys from Iceland, England, and Naples also came there to conduct the 'block training packages' that I had set up.

[R0N]

It would be more practical if the military structured shooting related training like the Blackwater or SOTG. Where the logistics are taken care of by the trainers/staff at the range. Cut the 3 shop out of the equation. Have courses that are constantly running and if there is space available then walk on shooters can be excepted in a matter of weeks or days.

Obviously you have never been part of the MEU staff. Because SOTG does none of the logistics or for that matter much of the planning for the PTP, the MEU S3 and S4 do all that.

All they do is provide the ranges and most the instructors. But the problem with SOTG instructors are that many are behind the power curve for what they instruct. At least in II MEF you often had a former Recon GySgt who hadn't deployed trying to teach room clearing or how to conduct a helo raids to guys who just got back from Ramadi.

[R-762wt]

Obviously you have never been part of the MEU staff.

No I wasn't, and truth be told I only did one MEU R&S package with them which was very lack luster. The bulk of my experience in dealing with SOTG comes from doing shooting packages there which ended up being pretty good. They were pre MARSOC, which many have made the complaint that the quality of SOTG's training has dropped off since its conception. They usually consisted of five days of flat range work and 3-5 days in the shoot house facilities. They involved a good amount of shooting and good tactics. I never experienced said Gysgt, but when I did the R&S package with them there was a fair share of "subject matter experts" across the board who left much to be desired. I think that the shooting packages I did there were not something that was offered to the MEU and when I was on the MEU we went to Blackwater instead of going to SOTG in its post MARSOC condition.

Either way it would be nice to see military ranges ran more like civilian ran training organizations. Their business model works and it was the deficiencies in military/LEO training that brought about a need for them in the first place.

I am going to take a stab in the dark and guess that we might have possibly been on the same MEU, seeing as how you said you just got back from Ramadi...1/6?

[R0N]

Were you one of Dave Lee's or Jason Mann's (RIP) Marines?

I was in the MEU 3 shop and split my time between KAF, FOBs Dehli and Dwyer and trips out west to see the MSOC that we detached right before the deployment.

[QuietShootr]

Where do they think the private sector instructors are learning thier methodolgy from? NRA books???? Aside from the few genetically mutated competitive shooting freaks, it takes several years is in SO and multiple combat tours to get selected on an RFP. Most requests from NSWG require prior service in NSWG to teach them; other USASOC units are following suit. Lack or research throughout the entire article it seems.

I don't think that's accurate.

Don't know who Barrett Tillman is, either, eh?

[coloccw]

I don't think that's accurate.

Don't know who Barrett Tillman is, either, eh?

Hmmmmm.....let me take a guess....A WRITER?!?
Awards for writing books, regardless of subject does not make every word to come from you pen the truth, nor does it make you familiar with federal contracting. While some of his writings are worthwhile, this article was not, and definately not comparable to his previous works.