"Marksmanship Matters:Let Soldiers Shoot" in the May 2011 American Rifleman

[MistWolf]

My brother tells a story of how his drill sergeant wanted use him as a shining example of how army training made my brother a good shot.

The drill sergeant barked "Tell us who taught you how to shoot so well, soldier!" to which my brother promptly answered "My father, Drill Sergeant!"

[TehLlama]

I didn't realize the Army round count was so tragically thin. I still want to complain about us only firing 600-700 rounds a year, but sending Soldiers into harm's way with that little trigger time is criminally negligent.

[coloccw]

I don't hear anyone complaining here about the lack of live fire training for civilians for CCW permits??? Is that combat much more different? What about LE who only get to qualify 1-2 times per yeat and fire only 50-100 rounds each time? Where is the demand for more for those who watch your backs while you sleep here in the US?

I hear these cries about lack of training but when it comes time to prepare each soldier for combat and buy ammo, noooooo....don't tax me any more! As someone who had the privlidge in special operations and get to train every day, year after year, round after hundreds of thousands of rounds; proper training for combat costs millions per soldier. If you think truck drivers need to spend time in shoot houses and pay clerks in the national guard need to burn up thousands of rounds of ammo, then hand the gov't YOUR checkbook. There is a method and reason why specific MOS's in the military are allotted X amount of ammunition. Believe it or not, there are people smarter than you and I in the government (just to clarify...not all of them) and tested methods to support them. You are not the first person to have this thought, nor will this change today (unless you have a checkbook as deep as Trump's). Instead of complaning, next time you see the young servicemember at the range and they are having some difficulty......square them away tactfully. Perhaps they'll teach you something about survivng a gunfight...


rant over.

[mkmckinley]

Our infantry basic BRM wasn't all that bad. I remember shooting quite a bit but looking back we had a good XO. I think a lot of it depends on who's running things.

[dookie1481]

I hear these cries about lack of training but when it comes time to prepare each soldier for combat and buy ammo, noooooo....don't tax me any more!

You've got to be ****ing kidding me.

I distinctly remember kicking crates of ammo off of the USS Saipan because our unit hadn't shot it's alloted ammo for the year/training cycle/whatever. We spent roughly 96% of our 6 months on the boat sitting on our ****ing asses.

In all of human history, I doubt there has been an entity more wasteful than the U.S. military.

[Axcelea]

I don't hear anyone complaining here about the lack of live fire training for civilians for CCW permits??? Is that combat much more different? What about LE who only get to qualify 1-2 times per yeat and fire only 50-100 rounds each time? Where is the demand for more for those who watch your backs while you sleep here in the US?

I hear these cries about lack of training but when it comes time to prepare each soldier for combat and buy ammo, noooooo....don't tax me any more! As someone who had the privlidge in special operations and get to train every day, year after year, round after hundreds of thousands of rounds; proper training for combat costs millions per soldier. If you think truck drivers need to spend time in shoot houses and pay clerks in the national guard need to burn up thousands of rounds of ammo, then hand the gov't YOUR checkbook. There is a method and reason why specific MOS's in the military are allotted X amount of ammunition. Believe it or not, there are people smarter than you and I in the government (just to clarify...not all of them) and tested methods to support them. You are not the first person to have this thought, nor will this change today (unless you have a checkbook as deep as Trump's). Instead of complaning, next time you see the young servicemember at the range and they are having some difficulty......square them away tactfully. Perhaps they'll teach you something about survivng a gunfight...


rant over.

Should be flattered people are interested in wanting servicemen to be better trained. Not complaining about CCWs shooting enough rounds? they must feel that its their own fault they can't shoot worth diddly then. LE? Perhaps they really don't care about police that or they have come to some rationalization that training for deadly force is not as crucial for a cop than it is for a soldier. What ever the reason why preference is given to better train the military, why spit at it?

As for the $$$. I doubt the bean counting is much of an issue, talking about ammunition for training where $1,000 = 2,500 rounds (that is for moderately priced commercial ammo, not government contract). If that is the case for better training, heck lets say $5,000 annual increase for over 10,000 rounds of ammunition per soldier it still isn't that much of a tax burden when you consider all the tax money for those salaries, benefits, other supplies they use and consume, etc not to mention everything else the government does (military is only 20% of the budget) and its not a big hit. Then if successful to increase the effectiveness of those trained you get savings in medical expenses, funeral expenses, death pay outs, bad PR, damaged equipment, etc although it is cold to look at a human life as a financial break down, it can end up so. Sure there will also be an increase in spending related to supporting the increased training as well but that shouldn't exceed dollar for dollar. Also isn't it all ready something like 250,000 rounds spent for a single enemy casualty?

I do agree that certain positions don't need to crank up the round count, that is for sure. For those who are expected to take a combat role it seems there can be a lot more done to properly prepare them. This of course could go beyond simple round counts and should include better/more drills, teaching them the platform better, and what others have mentioned.

Don't get me wrong there is likely some reason why it is not so beyond them just not wanting to do it. Some sort of public pressure of killing is bad and the military shouldn't have a model of making killing machines, people in the military not wanting to increase range time for what ever reason such as they feel they are adequately trained enough (seems to be a trend of people in the military feeling they are Jedi with guns), they know it won't be used, and heck maybe there is something out there about decreased returns with more training where its just not worth it (an example of which would be someone who shoots 1,000 rounds a week doesn't end up significantly better than someone who shoots 100 rounds a week). Somethings the reason and maybe it is just flat out the tax burden, just seems stupid if that is the case.

"square them away tactfully. Perhaps they'll teach you something about survivng a gunfight" not to be rude but what is this other than heavy handed BS?

[Smuckatelli]

You've got to be ****ing kidding me.

I distinctly remember kicking crates of ammo off of the USS Saipan because our unit hadn't shot it's alloted ammo for the year/training cycle/whatever. We spent roughly 96% of our 6 months on the boat sitting on our ****ing asses.

In all of human history, I doubt there has been an entity more wasteful than the U.S. military.

That isn't the wasteful U.S. military. that is a screwed up training section (S-3) that couldn't conduct training. I never had to turn in ammo and each year the ammo allocation was increased without having to kick ammo crates off the side of the ship.

Blame your unit but don't blame the whole U.S. military because you had a crappy S-3.

[TehLlama]

I don't hear anyone complaining here about the lack of live fire training for civilians for CCW permits??? Is that combat much more different? What about LE who only get to qualify 1-2 times per yeat and fire only 50-100 rounds each time? Where is the demand for more for those who watch your backs while you sleep here in the US?

For civilians and especially CCW holders the onus is absolutely on themselves to pursue training that fits their needs. Having to choose between training ammunition and other things is an admitted reality of LE budgets, but that model is always going to be a reactionary one that responds only AFTER an OIS anyway.

Believe it or not, there are people smarter than you and I in the government (just to clarify...not all of them) and tested methods to support them. You are not the first person to have this thought, nor will this change today

There aren't that many people smarter than me out there, and very few are in government. Instead there is a liability phobic bureaucracy that is far more concerned with pushing out DADT training and locking on funds for arbitrary base improvements and making sure every civilian contractor gets a new computer every 20 months. The money isn't lacking, it's simply being used on the wrong stuff.

Any trivial cost difference aside, there is a fundamental solemn agreement when sending a bunch of young men into a situation where they might have to defend each others' life with a rifle - and this is an example of how failing to hold up it's end, the Army brass is failing their duty to equip soldiers with the tools and training they need. We owe them more than a couple magazines and a check in the box.

[ZRH]

...........

[rero360]

I'm Combat Arms have been for the last decade minus the 2 1/2 years as a MP, I can honestly say that I've never received enough range time with the appropriate amount of ammo in any of my units, I've shot more of my own ammo thru my own guns than I have of military guns and ammo.