"Marksmanship Matters:Let Soldiers Shoot" in the May 2011 American Rifleman

[ZRH]

There aren't that many people smarter than me out there, and very few are in government.

If you're smart you know that argument never goes anywhere productive.

Any trivial cost difference aside, there is a fundamental solemn agreement when sending a bunch of young men into a situation where they might have to defend each others' life with a rifle - and this is an example of how failing to hold up it's end, the Army brass is failing their duty to equip soldiers with the tools and training they need. We owe them more than a couple magazines and a check in the box.

I don't think that was exactly what his argument was, though I might be wrong. I read it more as that a one size fits all solution would be prohibitively expensive. Combat arms is the main show, they should get most of the training. You take those same training resources and spread them out over the rest of the Army and there's going to be even less for the people who need it.

Slightly separate. The Army has known about deficiencies in the Trainfire qual since the 70s. It was made for a conscript army, not a pro fighting force. I've seen reports from 1973 that recommend they spend more time on range estimation and marksmanship and that instructors don't get enough training to adequately teach fighting skills.

[USAF007]

I am currently deployed with the Army on a PRT mission in Afghanistan. I am Active Duty Air Force, and well my job in the Air Force doesnt involve shooting at all.. I have been in 4 years next month, and I shot more rounds in the 3 months i was at Camp Atturbury for CST then i had in the prev. 3 years i had been in the Air Force.. I used to FIGHT for slots to CATM but always got shot down.. The brass would always tell me, son you know how to shoot. you shoot expert everytime you go.. Let someone who doesnt know how to shoot get some experience....

I love the Air Force, and I cant really fault them for only sending people in my career field MAYBE once a year to the range.. More like once ever 2 or 3 years because Working in the kitchen, gym, MWR facilities and mortuary affairs, well marksmanship isnt really a 'needed' quality..

[rero360]

Just read the article and couldn't agree with it more, I think it would be great if the Infantry soldiers, Cav troopers and the like can get the trigger time needed. I know the ability to shoot unconventional shooting positions is more on a unit to unit basis.

On a side note, I know SSG Wall, hes a good guy, shot against him at the CA Combat Match last Sept. he beat me on the one pistol event by a few points but I beat him on the other pistol event. I earned my bronze distinguished marksmanship badge for pistol that day. I shot the worst I ever have on rifle the following day though, placed something like 25 out of the 83 competing.

[rob_s]

A few things I wondered about the article...

Anyone know the real number of "trigger pullers" vs. support in the US Army? I have seen various number, percentages, and ratios tossed around the internut, but can anyone give a real number and cite their source?

Given the above, could the article be playing fast and loose with numbers, or whoever gave him the numbers, and averaging out total round count across the entire Army when maybe the Combat Arms Soldiers are getting more training?

Again, having not served I don't know the answers to these things, I'm asking questions.

One other thing that's interesting is the responses to the thread seem to fall into two categories. One is the "damn, get our boys more training!" and the other is "ah, now I see why that Soldier I met at the range can't shoot."

Related to the second category, I saw a young guy at a public range with his girlfriend last year. He kept talking about "when I was in Iraq" and so on. They were "shooting" an AK. I say "shooting" because his target looked like a shotgun pattern at 25 yards. The most interesting part was when he told the girlfriend "yeah, I bought an AK when I got home because I just wasn't impressed with the M4's stopping power." Made me chuckle a bit, as you can't stop what you can't hit, even with a .50 cal.

[Magic_Salad0892]

Call me financially irresponsible but if you shoot less than 5K rounds a year, and you have less than 5/600 hrs. of training a year - you're not truly ready to go balls out into a war.

Screw stupid sexual assault briefings, start teaching dudes how to throw lead.

Oh BTW: I hate when people make BS ''stopping power'' or kinetic energy claims.

[Jeff Franz]

I don't hear anyone complaining here about the lack of live fire training for civilians for CCW permits??? Is that combat much more different? What about LE who only get to qualify 1-2 times per yeat and fire only 50-100 rounds each time? Where is the demand for more for those who watch your backs while you sleep here in the US?

I complain about both of the above, quite often and quite loudly. In the case of the civilian CCW, while I am not in favor of MORE government instrusion and rules and regulations placed on or rights to defend ourselves, I find it almost criminal that here in NC, if you sit on your fat ass for 6 hours and watch a bunch of corny videos, and then place 20 shots anywhere on a B-27 target from 4 very close distances, you are qualified to carry a handgun. The same can be said for many LEO's. I find their initial training woefully inadequate and their lack of continued education disturbing. I believe both are a liability when it comes to shoot situations in public where the good guys and the bad guys are intermingled. That is one concern with graver concequenses than the soldier on the battlefield while be faced with, and therefore is probably more important.

What I find most disturbing on the civilian side is the "I don't have any time or money for training, but look at this bad assed $1,000 gun I just added to my safe full (of other guns I don't know how to shoot)." Or the "survivalist" who purchases ammuntion by the pallet for every caliber he owns in case the zombies attack or the SHTF (two phrases I hate). Therefore, he can either no longer afford training, or is unwilling to break into his "stash" to actually learn how to shoot. For the military, I just don't buy the "we don't have enough money" argument. Being a constitutionalist, I believe it is the federal government's responsibility to provide for our safety and security first and foremost, not to provide education, or medicare, or name your other federally funded program outside of their rightful purview. And when looking at the scale of TRILLIONS of dollars of debt, I doubt the extra funding to adequately train those who bravely put their lives on the line for us would make much of a dent.

Instead of complaning, next time you see the young servicemember at the range and they are having some difficulty......square them away tactfully. Perhaps they'll teach you something about survivng a gunfight...

Because I am a gun fan who actually enjoys shooting more than collecting, and shooting accurately more than turning rounds into noise and dirt clods, I have spent the time and money, and have had the good fortune of training with some of the bigger names in the industry (and continue to do so). To help get others enthused and help them enter into the world of knowing what they don't know, I offer basic marksmanship and weapons manipulation courses on the local level for very little cost for the handgun and carbine. Note these are not tactics classes, which I do not feel qualified to teach, but they are marksmanship courses. I do not claim to be LAV or Pat McNamara. I don't have anywhere near the width and breadth of knowledge and experience they have, and have never applied these TTP's in a real life or death situation. However, what I teach is based on what these guys teach, not a bunch of cool moves I came up with while playing MoH in my "command post" in my mother's basement. I have taught 9 classes in the past calendar year, averaging 8 students per class. In pretty much every class, I have had at least one military and one LEO that I offered the class to FREE or at a severely discounted rate, just enough to cover range fees and targets. I've had many students get enthused and go on and train with other, bigger instructors and broaden their knowledge and abilities, which is the goal.

The issue I often run into being a little guy "instructor" (and yes, I realize everyone is an "instructor" these days) is that I hear one of two arguments from my fellow gun enthusiasts: 1.) "I am former or current military. I know way more than you and you could not teach me anything. You are not qualified to teach anything to anyone gun related." Or, 2.) "what, you think you're going to war or something? Why train? shooting is just supposed to be for fun and personal protection. People are going to think you want to kill someone. Training is ridiculous for a civilian." That's not even getting into the assinine arguements I get from the anti crowd.


Let me just say that my previous post, and this one, are in no way a condemnation of our men and women in uniform, military or LEO. I respect them and thank them for the job they do. I know we wouldn't have the rights and priviledges we do were in not for those who serve and protect us. However, the original article in question, along with my observations above, point out a prevasive attitude in the "gun world." That is the attitude, or even the reality, that training is taking a back seat for whatever reason, be it time, money, ego or lack of willingness to learn. Maybe even a combination of all of the above. The truth of the matter is that we are all engaged in a hobby or lifestyle that carries with it serious consequences and liabilities. For the soldier, proper marksmanship training could be the difference between life or death and may even be an issue of national security. For the civilian or LEO, it could be the difference between life or death, or the difference between a bad guy wearing a hole, or some innocent, unintended target wearing one. Yet reasons and excuses to not train are abundant.

[rob_s]

What I find most disturbing on the civilian side is the "I don't have any time or money for training, but look at this bad assed $1,000 gun I just added to my safe full (of other guns I don't know how to shoot)." Or the "survivalist" who purchases ammuntion by the pallet for every caliber he owns in case the zombies attack or the SHTF (two phrases I hate). Therefore, he can either no longer afford training, or is unwilling to break into his "stash" to actually learn how to shoot.

Probably a bit of a hijack but I concur completely and we see this behavior play out online, and at the shooting events I have run, time and time again. I have guys at drills that shoot a different gun each month, usually badly, that tell me they can't afford to take a class. The good news is that repeated exposure to the drills usually cures them of that.

[Littlelebowski]

A few things I wondered about the article...

Anyone know the real number of "trigger pullers" vs. support in the US Army? I have seen various number, percentages, and ratios tossed around the internut, but can anyone give a real number and cite their source?

We were always told in the Corps that it's roughly 7:1 - POGs for every grunt.

The American Rifleman has been reporting on this for about 100 years - literally.

[LRS RGR]

Throw my .02 out there.

Much of the time how much time and resources depend on the unit and chain of command. When I was a grunt in the 82nd, we shot allot! We had training package prior to assuming the DRB (Division Ready Brigade). We did a zero and qual about every 18 weeks as well as various ranges, to include many live fire excerises. Go to the Ranger Regiment, shoot even more.

Go to a "Mech Inf" unit, shot less.

Not putting the mech guys down, as they had whole more assets to work with than light infantry guys. Not only did they have to shoot their personal weapons but had the M2 Bradly to qual with. IE that is a 25mm Bushmaster, TOW II anti-tank missiles and a M240 Coax MG. So they had to train with that as well. Then the train to fight as a "Combined Arms Team"....then there is maintenance

As a Soldier or Marine, you will never ever have enough time to train on all aspects of your job. Yes shooting is basic skill set, but as a leader you have to prioritsize what you are going to use your training time and money on. As a commander do I want my Forward Observers doing doing call for fire or Basic Rifle Marksmanship. Meanwhile we have to intergrate: Indivdual, Sqd, Plt, Co and Bn level training, FTXs, Commex, Fly-aways, Airborne OPs, Airmobile Ops. CQB/MOUT, PT, road marching, JRTC, NTC, Post Support, garrison activities.....and the other skill sets you have to be a High Speed, Low Drag Killing Machine, ie the sexy shit, like waterborne, fast-roping, mountaineering, cold weather Ops static-line jumping. Then there is the mundane crap like making sure your Joe's medical records are up to date, cleaning the barracks, JM refresher, IG inspections, more PT and road marches, EO classes, sending your guys off to schools.......................it can be frustrating.

That being said, over the last 20 some-odd years I have been involved in being a "Self-Propelled, Bullet Launcher" and "Human Mule" there has been a huge improvement in BRM and marksmanship training in general. Matter of fact just saw a group of shoulders from the 173rd Abn shooting the "9 Hole Drill" from "Green Rifles & Black Rifles". I used to bring inert rounds to work, if we had downtime, load some mags..."Tap, Rack, Bang" drills. Also have sent our NCO's shooting school such as Mid-South and even cloned a similar 5 day course at Ft Benning.

Granted we have a long way to go, but we have came a long way too. Unfortunately being a well rounded Soldier or Marine, you have to work allot of skill sets besides shooting. Right now I feel confident I can grab 30 grunts at random and put them against 30 grunts/insurgents from any other country and the Americans will out shoot them.

[ZRH]

Does anyone have a digital copy of Infantry Magazine, Jan 1964? There is an article that sounds like it could be a twin of this one but I only have the index CD.