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Thread: NFA Trust Help

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinsonr View Post
    The main issue people have with trusts and especially with ones that are not created by someone with a law degree is that if it's found (or decided) to be invalid, then you are illegally in possession of NFA items.
    Who would do this? Who would ever see it? I mean... You might have a 1 in a million shot at being asked to show your Form 1 or Form 4, but no one is likely to ever see your trust.

    And by what authority would they declare it invalid?

    Every day I declare the LWRC's junk is invalid, but they keep building the crap.
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  2. #12
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    Well for one the BATFE sees it every time you send in transfer tax paperwork. And considering they are the ones who enforce these laws, I'd say you should be most concerned with them.

    I show my forms almost every time I go to a range. Sure, all they can do is refuse service, but I don't think it's super crazy to imagine some hick customer of theirs calling the cops because you have an 'illegal' 'silencer'. Here in Texas it's a 'defense to prosecution to have an NFA item registered with the ATF'. Some dickhead cop could legally haul you in and force you to spend time and money showing your trust is valid.

    That's the risk that anyone that is associated with a trust and in possession of NFA items runs. Sure it's an extremely small risk, but that doesn't make it any less true. I personally have no issues with using Willmaker, etc, but like I said, the reason *some* people have issues with them is because a lawyer did not help ensure it's legal for your state.

  3. #13
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    Most of what I've heard when it comes to invalid trusts used for registering NFA items, is with how the assets/firearms are handled when the trustee dies or is incapacitated.

    What is entertaining to me is when people say if you are setting up a trust for NFA items, just use Quicken (take a shortcut), but if you are putting other assets in it, use a lawyer. Doesn't really make sense to me. And if you have the mentality, "who will ever check," WOW, not illegal if you don't get caught, huh?

    I do agree there is a verrry slim chance anyone will ever challenge the validity of your trust, hell the NFA has approved applications and issued stamps along with a note telling the person their trust is invalid. But there is also a slim chance that the average gun carrying citizen will ever have to use their firearm in self defense.

    The one thing that was in the back of my head when I finally decided to go with an attorney and spend too much damn money for a trust, was this: What if I use my SBR in a not so popular self defense shooting (or in my case on-duty shooting) and the piece of shit that I fail to kill or the family of someone I do kill decides to sue me and their attorney digs up all this crap and it's found that my trust is invalid, therefore my NFA registered SBR is now illegal? To me it was worth protecting myself and my family. Just my .02.

    One last thing, I'm pretty sure Quicken recommends you have a trust done with Willmaker reviewed by a lawyer, so why not just use an attorney.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmaGlock View Post
    The one thing that was in the back of my head when I finally decided to go with an attorney and spend too much damn money for a trust, was this: What if I use my SBR in a not so popular self defense shooting (or in my case on-duty shooting) and the piece of shit that I fail to kill or the family of someone I do kill decides to sue me and their attorney digs up all this crap and it's found that my trust is invalid, therefore my NFA registered SBR is now illegal? To me it was worth protecting myself and my family. Just my .02.
    This is the thought still swimming around in the back of my mind. You can always amend your trust, so if I ever come across a trust created by a "gun trust specialist", I will definitely adopt their version.

    For now, I've got THREE + months to wait for my first stamp! Until then, I've just got a piece of paper.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmaGlock View Post
    Most of what I've heard when it comes to invalid trusts used for registering NFA items, is with how the assets/firearms are handled when the trustee dies or is incapacitated.

    What is entertaining to me is when people say if you are setting up a trust for NFA items, just use Quicken (take a shortcut), but if you are putting other assets in it, use a lawyer. Doesn't really make sense to me. And if you have the mentality, "who will ever check," WOW, not illegal if you don't get caught, huh?

    The reason might be that most people who have a trust for purchasing title II firearms have only a few thousand dollars of assets in their "NFA" trust. They would likely have hundreds of thousands or maybe millions in their actual estate, so loosing everything in their NFA trust would be of little consequence to them in comparison.

    I don't really care what happens to my firearms when I die, I have no children, and no nieces or nephews. My trust will very likely have a total value less than that of a new big screen tv and entertainment system when I die. My spouse could really care less about suppressors, SBR's, and SBS's. I'm going to make the effort to set it up right, and I will make sure all parties named in it are informed and educated as to their responsibilities, but I for damn sure am not going to pay a lawyer more to make the trust than I am going to spend on the items in it. Can you imagine an LLC or Corporation, a real one, doing something like that?! That would be laughable right?

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Hunter View Post
    ...so loosing everything in their NFA trust would be of little consequence to them in comparison...
    Losing everything in the NFA trust would be bad enough. However, if you are using an illegal trust then is seems to me that you would be liable to prosecution for each transfer and possession of each item in the trust. At up to $250,000 and 10 years for each offense, that would scare me a lot more than losing the items.

  7. #17
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    Isn't there an underlying supposition in these Lawyer vs Willmaker threads, that if an Attorney draws it up it's legal and Willmaker may or may not be legal?

    Wouldn't they each need to be tested in court? If your accountant makes a mistake on your tax return you still owe the IRS and are subject to it's rules, regulations, fines, etc..

    Maybe a jury would look more favorably on paper work done by a lawyer? Maybe the jury doesn't like guns and "gun lawyers"?

    It just seems like to me there is a rule and regulation in place. Everyone is trying to abide by the spirit and intent of the law by using some sort of legitimate means to make a Trust. So that alone shows no intent to circumvent the legal system.

    So if you go to court, is it likely you would be fined and jailed for a clerical error while doing what the government told you to do and subsequently approved after three to nine months of scrutiny? I hope our legal system has not reached that point, but who knows.

    If it is that bad, I would not even trust my "trust" to a single lawyer. I would be looking for second and maybe even third opinions from other lawyers.

    What are some things that might be found illegal in a trust?

  8. #18
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    I've seen Willmaker 2009 suggested quite a few times. If that software did come out in 2009, then there's a small chance that your local laws have changed since. This is where having a lawyer involved would help - they hopefully keep up on current changes to state laws and will accommodate any changes necessary.

    This entire conversation is obviously based on supposition. No one is likely to encounter any issues, especially while the grantor is living. Now once that person dies and the various clauses of the Trust (which in some states is now NON-revocable) have to be put into effect, the opportunity for 'things' to crop up increases because you might be involving more people such as the beneficiaries on the trust. You wouldn't want your kids getting harassed by the BATFE about illegal transfers of these items.

    I don't expect that anyone will ever experience an issue when using a Trust to purchase/create an NFA item, but it's that other end of things that gets more complicated. Again, until cases are seen, this is all supposition, but like any good two-sided discussion on here this will likely keep cropping up along with Delton vs. Noveske, and Steel cased vs. OMG I only shoot match grade ammo.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormrider View Post
    Losing everything in the NFA trust would be bad enough. However, if you are using an illegal trust then is seems to me that you would be liable to prosecution for each transfer and possession of each item in the trust. At up to $250,000 and 10 years for each offense, that would scare me a lot more than losing the items.
    I completely agree. That's why you set up a legal trust and make damn sure your doing it right before you use it to purchase NFA items. A lot of the "Get a Lawyer" crowd make it sound like the "use Quicken" crowd are a bunch of lazy fools who simply aren't willing to put the time/money/effort into getting their trust done right. I think its just the opposite. I don't pay a mechanic to change my oil unless I'm feeling lazy, its never because I think he will do it better than I can. I would NEVER pay a mechanic to rebuild my engine, because I KNOW I care more about the finished product than he does and I am confident I will do it right.

    If a person isn't confident that they can make a legal trust, then YES, they should absolutely hire a professional.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tb-av View Post

    What are some things that might be found illegal in a trust?
    This is the question I am asking myself. People that bring up using a lawyer do not mention the things that can go wrong by doing it yourself. Is this merely a case of thinking, I am not a lawyer so there is increased chances of it going pear shaped? Or does anyone actually have first hand experience of an illegal/incorrect trust coming back to haunt someone?

    I would agree that anyone using any kind of software to make a trust should be aware of their local laws first.

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