PEQ-15 vs DBAL-A2

[Titleist]

I agree 100% with Titleist as far as the switches go.

So I see alot of guys that have their peq's and such mounted back near the sights and the switch is up in front of it on the top rail.

So my question, does your thumb/hand get in the way of the ir illuminator on the unit and do you get alot of bloom from the rifle /hand when using nv?

Going to copy/pasta from another forum where this question, here's my response:

There's two schools of thought. Pushing the laser back, or keeping it up front. We'll start with it back.

I used to run things up front, but as my reaction hand moved further up near the end of the rail I found that it forced me to run my thumb down on the rail, so I was losing positive control on the front of the gun while transitioning to different targets. I could roll my thumb over the PEQ to the FIRE button, but it was awkward and resulted in me losing a strong grip of the rail.

So I moved the PEQ (later DBAL) back towards the optic and used the SF SR-D-IT switch which let me keep control of light and laser just by moving my thumb an inch forward or back.

Now, here's the concerns as you mentioned; beam interruption and bounce. There's a big deal breaker to the argument I'll point out in a minute. But first:

My grip is NOT the same at night when it is during the day. During the evening I'll engage the IR laser, then roll my thumb down along the channel between left and top rails. Typically I'll be a bit more measured and methodical in my finger placement in the dark. Even operation, i.e no light press checks, etc. Everything just slows down to get safer. Because the IR designator is on the right side my thumb does NOT interrupt the beam. It WILL interrupt the illuminator beam for a split second turning it on or off however. The bezel of the light only catches the smallest amount of designator splash, but frankly even with no light installed the laser creates some splash along the barrel just from how lasers create ambient illuminator from their diodes.

So here's that rub I mentioned. I'm not shooting at people with NODs who can shoot back. My usage of IR and NOD tools comes from banging steel at 400-500yds on a 1 way range, or going out to SE Oregon to shoot Coyotes on a friend's ranch. So any back splash is MINOR, it's not enough to affect me, or shooting partners. I can't speak to how much NOD capabilities our enemies have, but it's questionable how much a threat any back-splash would be in combat either (I don't know, feel free to jump in on that one).

If you want to minimize splash moving the PEQ/DBAL up to the front is the surefire way to reduce it. So that's definitely a PLUS for that setup method.

The big advantage of running it further back is that you run the IR systems in parallel with the barrel, reducing deviance in your zero. Imagine setting up two really straight sticks parallel to each-other. It's easier to align them if they're pivot point is at the very back, rather then closer up towards the middle. The way I usually set up my zero is that I know my mechanical offset is about 2.5" high, and 1.5" right from the bore line to the IR emitter. I'll bench the rifle, and set the visible laser so that it's the same offset on the target, i.e higher and righter. I'll do a few groups and massage that zero so my strikes are low and left, therefore confirming the beam and the bore are running in parallel. I'll do this at 50, then re-check at 100 and 200. Some minor tweaks, and I know generally for the flight path of the round that things are running straight.

Otherwise if I put the laser's dot on my 50yd impact I know that the bore line and the laser line are technically criss-crossing themselves past 50yds. Which means as distances go further out and I rely on that laser it may be showing the laser being on target at 300yds, but my bore-line is actually pointing higher and righter then it should be.

[NastyButler]

Anyone got a PEQ-15 in black?

[Titleist]

Anyone got a PEQ-15 in black?

Yes. I do.

[NastyButler]

Its the one you got on your OBR? Mines tan and I'm looking for a black one. Got any advice on a place to shop for one?

[WillC]

Myself and my co-workers use LASERs for a living... literally, and the movement to white light should be a deliberate process, separate from one used to aim and kill someone in a short period of time, that being said, to have your white light actuate in that circumstance is not good, and when stress levels kick in the body reacts with gross motor function and having a button that actuates white light and is near to the one you need is far from ideal.

[RustedAce]

From my experience in using it I don't find it necessary. The beam provides all the IR light I need. 90% of the time I was inside a building conducting a raid, with the flood light on it caused to much illumination and would wash out my NODs. There was also the rest of the guys in my squad with there lasers on which would provide even more IR light. It is my personal preference. Some people like it and need it, some don't.

Then why not use an IR Otal, or uni-Ir, or PAQ4? All would save you money, and all but the PAQ would save you size and weight??

Heck Ill trade you for my IR otal.


Ive always found the flood to be incredibly useful for identifying stuff at distance at night in shadow, or in low ambient light conditions.

I never used the flood to clear, except to occasionally light up closets, dark spaces quickly on low power, but it was still nice to be able to use it.

[KAC Lover]

Then why not use an IR Otal, or uni-Ir, or PAQ4? All would save you money, and all but the PAQ would save you size and weight??

Heck Ill trade you for my IR otal.


Ive always found the flood to be incredibly useful for identifying stuff at distance at night in shadow, or in low ambient light conditions.

I never used the flood to clear, except to occasionally light up closets, dark spaces quickly on low power, but it was still nice to be able to use it.

I have an atpial on one of my bolt guns and I don't even use the laser, only the flood, simply to be able to see targets at 500+. It's incredibly useful.

[M4Guru]

If you are OK with an IR laser without IR illumination you need to report to the nearest free clinic for a piss test. If you wouldn't work at night with an RDS but no white light, go ahead and appreciate the irony of being OK with no IR illumination source.

The downside with these devices is you have to know how to set them up, adjust them, zero them, and manipulate them. It is not plug and play. Too much money, not enough training in this thread.

Zeroing effectively is not easier if laser is near the back the barrel. Zero is a position of the laser's impact in relation to the round's windage over distance and elevation at an exact distance when from your rifle. Because bullets drop due to gravity and velocity loss, your perfectly straight laser is a measure of your rifle/rounds true windage, you have to compensate for the variable elevation, just like your Aimpoint or Eotech. There is an acceptable range of offset for the laser that must be shot at increasing distance to refine your zero so it is truly parallel to the flight of X round from your rifle. There are more hasty methods that are functional, but the laser being offset from the center of the boreline adds another plane of deviance to the flight of your rounds in relation to your sighting system, it is not as simple as POI/POA. Even on device-specific military targets, when you use them at 25M when you back it up to 300M you're not truly zeroed in most cases. Bullet flight begins when it exits the muzzle. What happens then is what your sighting system accounts for, which is why every professional users have learned to put them as far forward as possible for maximum efficiency. When I say professional user, I don't mean every military guy issued a laser, I mean people who are specially selected and trained to fight with guns. If you think you know more about shooting carbines at night than these people, get in line behind IR illuminator guy at the urinalysis counter. Someone had to convince me to alter my grip for a laser...they did this by showing me firsthand how much my laser at the rear was sub-optimal. It worked, the rear sucks. Splash matters, it's distracting and takes away from the effects of the laser on target. I had issues zeroing, because we are anal about IR laser zero as it is a primary sighting system for most of the work I do. Don't accept mediocrity in the name of comfort. I used to shoot with my thumb over the gun so I had to move my laser back...not willing to sacrifice .03 sec. of a split time on a flat range drill for real world practicality and performance. Looking back that was ****ing stupid.

If anyone wants to come to NC to test their night fighting capability, I have access to a sweet range, lots of night-fighting specific resources, I have plenty of free time, and love to shoot guns all night. I guarantee that I can make you a believer in proper laser position, zero, and the absolute necessity for and IR flood.

I understand the priority for guys like WillC and myself are different but if you are going to have one on your gun, knowledge is power...get your money's worth out of it.

http://www.lmsdefense.com/course-det...ght+Operations
Highly recommended. Chappy is a great guy with a good program.

[Titleist]

If you are OK with an IR laser without IR illumination you need to report to the nearest free clinic for a piss test. If you wouldn't work at night with an RDS but no white light, go ahead and appreciate the irony of being OK with no IR illumination source.

The downside with these devices is you have to know how to set them up, adjust them, zero them, and manipulate them. It is not plug and play. Too much money, not enough training in this thread.

Re: IR Illuminators, when you're right, you're right. Simple as that.

I'll fall on my sword in regards to the last comment in your quote, since it's a fair point. But you don't know what you don't know. Given the fact that there aren't "Here's how to zero your IR laser for X and Y situations" like there are for normal "Here's the FAQs on how to shoot your AR" a lot of the information gleamed is second hand, by observation, etc.

Lots of little facts floating around without a cohesive "here's how not to be stupid" connective thread to tie it all together. There's really no counter-argument to what you're saying I put my PEQ to the rear because 95 percent of my shooting is during the day, and 2-3 times a month at night, so as you said it's out of comfort and what I'm used to doing. Simple as that, and most assuredly it's "mediocrity in the name of comfort."

If anyone wants to come to NC to test their night fighting capability, I have access to a sweet range, lots of night-fighting specific resources, I have plenty of free time, and love to shoot guns all night. I guarantee that I can make you a believer in proper laser position, zero, and the absolute necessity for and IR flood.

I understand the priority for guys like WillC and myself are different but if you are going to have one on your gun, knowledge is power...get your money's worth out of it.

You already know I'm taking you up on that offer in November. Getting guys who know what they're doing is a challenge, getting guys who know what they're doing and are willing and able to share that knowledge is even more challenging.

In regards to my comments, sorry for any "blind leading the blind" comments I may have made. The goal is for a night operator course this summer, to actually get more experience under my belt.

[Jason Falla]

I've been playing around with laser/illuminators for over fifteen years now both operationally and during training. I first saw the PEQ 4 in our units inventory around 1995, I grabbed it and mounted it to my M16A2 and in conjunction with a set of Litton PVS 15s I had some of the first NFE issued to SOF soldiers in the ADF.

After a few years, the ADF was the first military to issue full NFE per man in the infantry. This consisted of a NAD (Night Aiming Device) without illuminator and a NOD (Night Observation Device), a Ninox monocular.

A few years later I stepped up to the big leagues and was issued a PEQ 2A with an M4 and a set of Dual PVS 15s. This combo was in my opinion one of the best ever.

I have played around with the PEQ 15 and have a PEQ 15A and trialled the PEQ 15A (green). I have trained many SO units issued with PEQ15s and from my experience, I have not been impressed with the PEQ 15. These are the reasons why:

(1) I have seen units fail to hold zero.
(2) The illuminator diameter is not large enough.
(3) The visible laser is not powerful enough.

The PEQ 15 (DBAL-A2 red) has served me well over the last few years, thanks to Chappy. I have not had one issue with it. The unit has some draw backs though:

(1) The unit is not water proof to 66ft like the PEQ 15 (Mil use only).
(2) The illuminator diameter is not large enough.
(3) The visible laser is not powerful enough.
(4) The dual knob set up is confusing.

The PEQ 15 green fixed alot of these issues, I had this unit for a while (courtesy of Vic at TNVC) training some folks in night fighting and I was suitably impressed with the improvements from the original unit. Here are some of the improvements from the end user perspective:

(1) The Illuminator diameter is alot wider.
(2) The visible green laser is unbeatable during the day.
(3) The dual knob has been replaced by a single knob with controls similar to the PEQ 2.
(4) The adjustment knobs have been recessed better for protecting the zero and more so from damage!

Overall, It will ultimately depend upon your mission requirements that determines what unit suits your needs. Or what ever you get issued! If you are using it for LE roles, I would go with the PEQ 15 green over everything else.

If was a member of my former unit, I would be issued with the PEQ15 as it meets full Mil-Spec requirements for diving etc.

If I could build my own, I would have a small Mil-Spec unit that had a greater diameter illuminator, higher output visible laser, more intuitive controls. There is nothing on the market like this but the closest is the PEQ 15! Now that I am no longer diving, it does not need to be water proof to 66ft, so the winner is...PEQ 15 green.