Taking my first carbine course ... looking for some gear pointers.

[aveisone]

Ive enrolled in a carbine course and Ive been setting myself up with the gear I (think I) will need to run it effectively and efficiently. I have a 4 mag chest rig and a dump pouch. Im not sure Ill need a dump pouch, but I thought it might be nice to have. I have a camelbak I could use. Will I need the pouch and the hydration?

I plan on running my pistol and pistol mags on my belt. Thats where I carry it daily. Thats where I run it for IDPA. I think its a good place to keep it.

My carbine is a nice light AR with a good 2 point adjustable sling. It has an A2 fsb and a Troy flip up rear. Ive been shooting it with irons sights and Im pretty comfortable with them. Ive been thinking about picking up an Aimpoint T1 and a larue high mount. Its a nice light option with great reviews, but damn they cost! Would this benefit me in the course? It wont take much to talk me into one.

Any good advice on the topic? What did you bring that you could have done without? What did you wish you had? School me.

[IPApilot]

I've only been to two Vickers classes so I'm still on a steep learning curve and working out my kit as well.

1. OIL. Every couple of breaks, put a few drops of oil on the bolt. All though I was warned, during my first class I forgot to oil my gun and by noon it was having problems.

2. Gloves. You would be amazed at how hot the barrel, FSB and hand guard gets if you are running it hard.

3. Dump pouch is a great idea. You will use it a lot.

4. Mags. Label and number your magazines. You will know which ones are yours and every now and then you will find a mag that just sucks and wont run in your gun. Take as many as you have but keep one or two empty to run malfunction drills.

5. Good boots or shoes. You will be on your feet all day.

6. Electronic ear protection. You can hear instructions much easier.

7. Weather appropriate gear. Most classes will run regardless of weather conditions, rain, sleet, snow, sun, you name it. You want to have the clothes necessary to stay outside all day. Remember sun screen, water snacks and maybe a bag lunch.

8. Optics. You don't "have" to have one, but they are nice. I use to have Eotec's but have gone to Aimpoints. I have a PRO and a R1 now. I have seen guys run the class very well without an optic.

9. Paper and pen. Take notes when you can. You can't possibly remember everything you will be told. The instructor will probably appreciate it.

10. Attitude. Be prepared to learn and apply what the instructor is teaching. Don't be surprised if "adult" language is used. Also, don't be surprised if the instructor starts applying a little shall we say "pressure" to you to get you to perform. Bring your big boy pants and don't take it personal if the instructor seems to get agitated if you are not performing up to standards. Most people perform better when under pressure. Have "FUN" but don't be the funny man and make a joke of everything. Try to show up a few minutes early and help set up targets etc. Be prepared to hang out for a few minutes after class to help clean up.

11. Always be "muzzle aware"! Even when you lay your gun on a table or bench. Try to make sure your muzzle is pointed down range.

Just my 2 cents and a few things I've picked up. Good luck and enjoy.

[rob_s]

The first, most important thing, is to ask your instructor what you need for the class. Every class I have ever taken has come with a gear list broken down into required and suggested. That doesn't mean they are all the same, but they all have that list. I've taken classes where shooters can get by with 1-2 magazines in belt pouches to classes that require 5 magazines on your person and one in the gun. I have never taken a class where the instructor's gear list fell short.

My number one suggestion is to try keep things simple. Resist the urge to try to carry everything but the kitchen sink on your person.

Hand in hand with this, is to deconflict your gear before the class. Put on all your gear, and make sure you can access your pistol, access all of your magazines, you have no loose ends, etc.

Lots of people will make suggestions as to what works for them. For example, I can't stand wearing a camelback and prefer to simply pre-hydrate and then drink during breaks.

IPA's list above is pretty good, and pretty universal. I would add to that guns that you know run, and ammo that you know runs in your guns.

[Neville]

don't take it personal if the instructor seems to get agitated if you are not performing up to standards. Most people perform better when under pressure.

I really, really doubt that- and I have a Master in psychology with focus on adult learning. Many good questions still exist but
in every experiment I know one thing has been evident over and over. If you want a great and lasting learning curve don't
push as humans can't learn new things under stress.

But this has yet to be discovered in the US training community.

[rob_s]

I was engaged to a girl with a piled-higher-and-deeper in clinical psychology. Both her and her cronies were the most ****ed-up, clueless bunch in the universe.

If it is a fact that stress-induced learning is problematic it is a case of the tale wagging the dog as they psychological community and their namby-pamby horseshit is largely responsible for the pussification of the American Male.

Raise little bitches --> test to see if bitches respond better to molly-coddling or being treated like men --> fail to make the correct conclusion that it's the molly-coddling that caused the situation

[Neville]

Sorry but that is neuroscience = physiological data collected by medical doctors around the world. No matter what
beef you have with American psychologists, you can't pussy talk brain cells into not connecting with each other efficiently.

I understand why even trainers with more insight into learning theory do it, as experiencing a little boot camp atmosphere seems
to give some guys a hard-on. The customer is king, I guess... But citing Stress Inoculation Training (SIT) - as some do- really shows
a fundamental lack of understanding as the basic message of SIT is: you can't efficiently learn new skills under stress.
Btw, such "pussy's" as Michael Phelps use visualization and biofeedback (=stress reducing) for getting even better...

Sorry for being offtopic.

[Kuro Ookami]

I think IPApilot covered a lot of the essentials. Might want to include sunblock if it's gonna be really sunny. Make sure to bring lots of water/gatorade. Also, like Rob said, ask the trainer, and run with as little gear as possible. It's your first class, so this is where you figure out what's important, and not important, for you. Take the opportunity to try out other people's guns and equipment.

Re: OT stress/training
Just keep in mind that most trainers simulate stress just to point out what can go wrong during a typical engagement and what your sticking points are. At no point are they trying to make you learn on the spot.

[rob_s]

Sorry but that is neuroscience = physiological data collected by medical doctors around the world. No matter what
beef you have with American psychologists, you can't pussy talk brain cells into not connecting with each other efficiently.

I understand why even trainers with more insight into learning theory do it, as experiencing a little boot camp atmosphere seems
to give some guys a hard-on. The customer is king, I guess... But citing Stress Inoculation Training (SIT) - as some do- really shows
a fundamental lack of understanding as the basic message of SIT is: you can't efficiently learn new skills under stress.
Btw, such "pussy's" as Michael Phelps use visualization and biofeedback (=stress reducing) for getting even better...

Sorry for being offtopic.

It's nature vs. nurture. We've nurtured our children into being incapable of the natural ability of processing under stress so we stick them in "pillow rooms" when we send them to the therapists that are doing the jobs that we should have done ourselves.

You know how people learn best? Having a need to learn. Set my ass on fire and I guaran****ingtee you I'll learn how to turn on the fire hydrant. and I don't need any lame-ass visualization for that.

More to the point, Kuro has it exactly right. It's not some marketing ploy for the walter mittys as you imply, it is racheting up the stress level to test the ability to retain knowledge. It may well be that the best way to teach little Johnny physics is to sit and stroke his hand while whispering formulas into his ear, but when it comes to stills intended to save one's life at some point you need to add some stress to see how the lessons are taking. If you can't even handle getting yelled at a little bit while shooting paper non-moving targets on a range with impossibly blue skies and cottonball clouds floating overhead you're likely to face real trouble should you ever actually need the skills you're being tested on.

[Failure2Stop]

Two things:

1- You won't have time to suck on your camelbak while you are on the line, you will be busy shooting. While back at the benchs you will have plenty of time to drink from a bottle of water.

2- I agree with Neville. People do not learn well while under stress. Stress should be introduced as mastery is gained, but too early and people will self-abbreviate skills to meet an artificial timeline.

[rob_s]

Just to clarify, and in the interests of not scaring off the OP...

I don't think anyone is talking about a training class where you're screamed at from the moment you get out of your car on TD1 to the moment you're handed your certificate at the end of TD3. I've never even heard of a class like that in the commercial firearms training market.

But I have seen a LOT of people react to the ratcheting up of stress as simple as a raised voice, a timer, and a harsh word upon failure by the figurative curling up in the fetal position, poking thumb in mouth, and retreating to a position of "I don't learn well while getting yelled at". There is a HUGE difference between the two.

There is an argument to be made that the instructor should be capable of gauging what each student is capable of handling and applying the appropriate amount of stress unique to each student's ability and tolerance, but there is also an argument to be made that over-catering to kid's emotions is what created that condition to begin with.