Barely know how to shoot an AR15, should I buy an optic regardless?

[GrandPooba]

New to rifle shooting. I've been shooting handguns for a few years. I just got my AR a few months ago and really have taught myself the basics by trying to translate my experience with handguns over to rifles. However, I did sign up for an Appleseed shoot this summer to really get the basics down (with my 10/22). I would also like to take a defensive carbine course this year.

Right now, I shoot 2-3 times a month all with irons. Range sessions consist of both shooting for groups as well as presentations, double taps, mag changes, etc. The best I can shoot is ~1 inch @ 25m from a supported position. When doing the "tactical" stuff from a standing position, my "groups" are upper torso sized. Stupid gun club doesn't let me shoot on the 50m/100m range until my 6 month probationary period is past. Now, obviously, I would like to keep shooting irons to build up those skills, but I also depend on my AR for home defense use. I am well aware of the advantages an optic like an AImpoint or Eotech provide for low light close quarters use. My AR is a KISS setup with just a sling and Surefire light mounted on the front sight base

So, should I just buy an optic and start practicing with both optics and back up iron sights? Or, should I wait until after I get formal training before slapping stuff onto my AR. I would like to hear the community's opinions on the practical benefits of optics as a function of training and skills.

[snackgunner]

Id personally practice more with the irons and spend the money on more ammo and training, then get the optic later down the line.

If you get the optic you may never want to take it off. Plus even if you did, taking the optic off and on (to practice with both irons and optic), and having to re-zero it all the time will be a pain.

What if your optic fails?

My .2 cents

[MassMark]

It was many moons ago, but I seem to remember a member here, (rob_s perhaps?), who made a pretty strong argument for getting an RDS like an Aimpoint on your rifle ASAP. The only thing that comes to mind for me, is that if this is your home defense rifle and you have even an inkling that you'll use it as such, you should equip it with sensible equipment to help improve your skill and effectiveness with your weapon....

[GrandPooba]

It was many moons ago, but I seem to remember a member here, (rob_s perhaps?), who made a pretty strong argument for getting an RDS like an Aimpoint on your rifle ASAP. The only thing that comes to mind for me, is that if this is your home defense rifle and you have even an inkling that you'll use it as such, you should equip it with sensible equipment to help improve your skill and effectiveness with your weapon....

Yes, the fact that my AR is also my home defense weapon is the strongest argument I've thought about for getting an optic immediately.

However, the other side of me strongly values fundamentals and training in the basics before making the "next step".

So, there are two sides that I am juggling right now.

[MistWolf]

Perhaps you should contact the folks that are running the carbine course you're planning to take and find out what gear they recommend for the class. Then plan accordingly

[chadbag]

However, the other side of me strongly values fundamentals and training in the basics before making the "next step".

A gun with a RDS type optic is a different gun than an iron sighted gun. They both have fundamentals. Some the same, some divergent.

[Stangman]

Practice with the irons, get proficient with them, and learn the weapon. After that, move on to optics.

Just my .02

[msstate56]

I know the mantra here is to "master" irons first, which is great in theory. I think it is widely accepted that people shoot better with optics, which is why our military is optically oriented. I don't know of many deployed soldiers/marines that don't have an optic on their weapon. For the OP's described use of the gun, I think an Aimpoint of some type will work well for him. Iron sights have been called Back-Up-Iron-Sights for several years for a reason. I think irons still have a place on fighting guns, but for serious use I think an Aimpoint or ACOG would be my first purchase, followed by a weapon light purchsed at the same time. People who know much more about this than me have said a modern rifle needs an optic and a white light, and ammo. Everything else , like rails, lasers, etc., is just an added benefit.

[outrider627]

I say learn irons, because its a fundamental skill applicable to all rifles/shotguns. That being said, if you find an awesome deal on a quality red dot like an Aimpoint, buy it.

[rob_s]

The fundamentals of fighting are different than the fundamentals of shooting. Shooting is a core skill that is only PART of fighting.

You need to define your terms. and your goals.

Of late I have become, rather strongly, of the opinion that we are (many of us) doing one thing and saying another. To draw a parallel, what's more important: taking a handgun class that shoots out to 25 yards and beyond, or taking a CQC class that teaches you to retain the weapon and fight in confines like a car? The A-answer is "neither", but the A-answer would change if you knew you were going to be in a fight next week and you looked at the statistics on same.

I say that to say this...

If you are currently relying on this firearm as a defensive tool in your home, and if "home defense" to you means what it does to me (retrieve kid, hunker down with kid and woman, pop first face that comes through the door), then IMO you owe it to yourself to get an RDS. Sticking to the iron sights in that situation because you were concerned with learning the fundamentals of marksmanship is just plain

Nothing says you can't have the RDS on the gun at home, take it to the range a few times to get familiar with it, and use that as part of your HD plan. Buy an Aimpoint C3 and never turn it off. RDS are stupid easy to use, especially on close range targets, and are exponentially easier to use on moving targets and in the dark. Keep both eyes open, see the mother****er, put the dot on the mother****er, shoot the mother****er (to paraphrase Pat Rogers).

While this is going on, if part of your goal structure is to become a better marksman, go take a class with the irons. I'll have an article in SWAT next month or the month after about getting back to basics where I took a 3-day class with irons after years of optics use.

Our local IDPA club has a picnic match every year where we set up a lane for the kids to shoot .22s. We have also had family friendly rimfire events where the kids get to shoot "stages" with the rifles. Over and over again I have watched kids who struggled with the iron-equipped guns pick up an RDS-equipped gun and start making hits. You cannot argue with that kind of success and those kinds of results. Hell even the Army gave up on trying and I've met many prior-service that tell me they never even learned the irons at all.

Discussions of what make you a better rifleman should not be confused with what makes you a better fighter. "Learn irons" and "you need a better trigger" and "pencil barrels aren't accurate enough" and all that other horseshit is just that, horseshit. That guy telling you that isn't there with you at 4 AM while you try to find those iron sights over the top of your bed with your wife and kid hunkered behind you. He's not there with you when you put a little too much pressure on that $300 trigger and put a round in your kid's foot, or worse, while moving around your house.

Pat Rogers has another saying that is appropriate here:
"We need to get over the romance of aligning sights and get to the business of shooting smelly bearded men in the face more efficiently."
Whether that smelly bearded man is a moose-limb overseas or a meth head in your basement, the sentiment is the same.

Don't let the traditionalists hamstring you. They'll tell you to go buy a revolver, and then a 10/22, and then you're "allowed" a semi-auto, and on and on. Then 6 months in to your 10 year zen training you have an event where you need a gun and all you have is a revolver in your range bag and a 10/22 in your safe and you're SOL. Those of us that came to firearms as adults, with an end-goal of defending ourselves and our families, have a different set of criteria and needs than a kid starting out. I started the boy on a youth 10/22 with iron sights. I started his mom on a Glock 19 with night sights, a Boresight Solutions grip reduction, and a white light along with other modifications (and a two-day class) to make it, and her, a better fighter. Two different things.

Becoming a marksman is an admirable goal, and the fundamentals of marksmanship ARE important, but they take years to master and you're SOL if the fight happens before you are ready.