Barely know how to shoot an AR15, should I buy an optic regardless?

[rob_s]

Yeah, learning fundamentals before adding performance enhancers is completely unrelated to this thread. Hey guys, I plan on starting a weight lifting program soon. What kind of 'roids should I use with my first cycle? I want to be really strong.

Should I buy a yellow visor to match my escalade or should I just keep rocking the "cocked" hat?

I see, so this is a personal issue for you. Good luck with that.

[Doc Safari]

OP: I'm taking this exact journey right now myself.

My decision:

1. I'm used to shooting other firearms and not so much the M4. Until I get proficient with irons at any range I realistically expect to use it, I won't install an optic. After that, it's an Aimpoint for sure.

2. We are approximately a year and a half from an election. This is a time of relative calm with regard to another assault weapons ban or high capacity magazine ban. My plan right now is to purchase a good inventory of magazines and ammunition so that if another panic sets in closer to the election, then I won't be paying inflated prices and scrambling for availability.

As far as training goes I am investigating that right now and won't comment until I have a lot more information.

[rsgard]

Comprehend what you read, then post.

In the analogy, the existing car is already a manual.

I'm not even sure what the hell the rest of your post means. Is this thread now about manual versus automatics? Because perimeter frames are generally stronger than unibody construction. Take that.

1.
Iron sights is to manual transmission as RDS is to______

A. a comparison between a simple skill and one involving higher mental function and years of education
B. Learjet
C. Apples and Orangutangs
D. Automatic transmission

[Smuckatelli]

Comprehend what you read, then post.

In the analogy, the existing car is already a manual.

I'm not even sure what the hell the rest of your post means. Is this thread now about manual versus automatics? Because perimeter frames are generally stronger than unibody construction. Take that.

Let's relax, Rob's post 'bout RDS and the OP's intended use make perfect sense. RTA, your comment about "existing car" is spot on. For the OP's existing requirement, the RDS is what he needs. I originally voted for wait for training but after Rob bitch slapped my thinking, I wish that I would have picked the other choice.

BTW, the existing cars in our garage are a CX-9 & V-70 R (turbo, 300 hp, 6 speed manual). When my daughter turned 16 she spent the first 2 months only driving the V-70 R. Once she was good to go with that I let her drive the CX-9 automatic.

[R Moran]

BUY IT!!!

Dive right into that electronic crutch!

WTF does that even mean? How is an optic a "crutch"? Perhaps he should learn to use a muzzle loader first, as these new fangled breech-loaders are just a crutch.


The fundamentals of marksmanship remain the same, regardless of the type of sights used.
More people shoot poorly due to poor trigger manipulation, then anything else.

Please, please tell me, what, real world advantage do iron sights bring to the game? What real world advantage is there to learning iron sights first? Lets dispense with these antiquated notions of "cheating" and the right way to learn "fundamentals". You probably don't believe in resting the mag on the ground either, cause, ya know its cheating, and all...

The fact is, they got nothing, period. No real world gunfighting organization, of any merit, uses iron sights as the primary sighting device. I can think of only one instructor of any merit that still advocates iron sights.

What a RDS does do, is give you options. It allows you to get on the sights faster, in varied lighting conditions, and, most importantly, in varied, non-standard, asymmetric shooting positions, that you'll likely find yourself in. Well not at Camp Perry, but in a gunfight.

There is a video floating around, of a "torture" test that Daniel Defense conducted on one of its carbines, with an Aimpoint T1 mounted. The amount of abuse the rifle and optic took, was astonishing. Even with a hole in the rear lens, the optic worked and retained zero. Only after a 100 foot drop from a helo, did it loose zero.

Rob_S hit most of the highlights, though I disagree with some of the details.

To the OP, this has been discussed quite a bit around here, you'll find a lot with the search.
I would however, caution against, "self taught" shooting. Practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect. You may only be reinforcing bad habits.

You have multiple "priorities" competing for, what I assume, are limited funds. A good gun, light, optic, mag's, ammo and training. They all go together, one with out the others, lacks the potential of the total.
Find a good instructor, who's focus is on what you want to do with the carbine. Larry Vickers, Paul Howe(iron sights guy) Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzales, Jim Smith, Kyle Lamb, etc etc all have excellent carbine operators courses.

BTW, the Army got away from manual transmissions long ago, because they figured, and later, at Black Hawk down, were proven right, that... trying to steer, shoot, talk on a radio, AND shift, kinda sux.

Some of you guys need to take a look at a calendar.

Bob

[JSantoro]

Comprehend what you read, then post.

In the analogy, the existing car is already a manual.

I'm not even sure what the hell the rest of your post means. Is this thread now about manual versus automatics? Because perimeter frames are generally stronger than unibody construction. Take that.

Take your own advise as cited in your first sentence.

And, stop using car analogies for weapons. They rarely match up particularly well, as you may be (or more likely are absolutely not) discovering, since all one ever manages to do is nitpick automotive subsystems as everybody attempts to out-clever each other and make the whole thing devolve into a tiresome Chevy/Ford/less filling/tastes great idiocy.

Reign in your emotions, stuff in a manpon. Take that, yourself.

[Scoby]

My opinion.

If torso size grouping is all you can get offhand at 25 yds with irons, it sounds like you could benefit either from better fundametals of shooting or a RDS due to bad eye sight (like me).

I didn't have a RDS when I first got into ARs and it didn't take long to realize that I needed an optic, got one and my accuracy greatly improved. Hell my 11 yo daughter can out shoot me with the 10/22 with irons now.

[d90king]

I'm taking drivers ed next month...do you guys think I should buy a supercharger or learn to drive a standard transmission? My car is a manual of course, but I really think I need something faster ASAP.

I plan on becoming a pilot soon. Should I buy a Learjet or hold out for the space shuttle? Thanks for the help guys.

Amazing that this thread has lasted.

The OP asked for and IMHO has gotten sage advice regarding adding a simple RDS to his carbine that is being used in a HD role.

I applaud a new member who instead of just looking at a bunch of glossy pics of weapons with gadgets and gizmos on them, seeks out guidance, instead of just wasting money on crap that he doesn't need or know how to use.

Instead, the OP is seeking out guidance on what the best steps would be for him to take after he has ALREADY been working on his own shooting irons, AND he is also seeking out professional instruction. Its MUCH more than I can say for most newcomers to this site and newcomers to shooting in general.

[JSantoro]

He's been addressed. Let's please move forward.

Otherwise, we'll be subjected to some new horror of an obscure automotive metaphor involving clogged filters or references to top-dead-center.

I'm not prepared for that kind of pressure....

[markm]

Here's what most people do when they get an AR and they're new to the thing... or new to guns period.

BOLT a bunch of shit to the gun rather than figure how to use what they have. Just because Pat Rogers gets kick backs to tell you that YOU NEED to have a Red Dot, doesn't make it so.