Saiga-12, good gun?

**moses in maine** · 05-21-11, 08:54

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

A properly set up Saiga 12 makes all other shotgun obsolete. By properly set up I mean with a mag well from R&R that allows you to reload as fast as an AR15. That and a good compensator and optic. But the down side a tricked out Saiga is expensive. I have 3k into mine from R&R targets. But there is simply no comparision with tube guns. I can reload a fresh 12 round mag in 3 seconds. To give you an idea at a recent three gun match on a stage with 15 targets I ran it in 10.6 or so seconds. The next fastest person (all using tube guns) was at 26 seconds.
The biggest issue for reliablity with these guns when using bird shot is to use shells with good slick hulls like Winchester double AA's. I have never had an issue with slugs or buck either.

Here is mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh8QCaCQzy0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djh4dFWUCr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrNftrfOiZ0

Thats very nice set up you have there !

? were those sure fire 12 round mags you running in that saiga ? I just got my first saiga back in febuary , I have not had a chance to shoot it yet , but i got a bunch of the sure fire 8 , 10 , and 12 round mags . so are the sure fire mags in your opinion GTG ? does the fact that they do not have metal feed lips make them more prone to fail ?

thanks !

**Alaskapopo** · 05-21-11, 11:24

The mags are 12 rounders and they haved worked well for me. They have been modified by Rob at R&R targets so they work with his magwell and they will no longer work in a standard gun. (top of mag has to be removed and a whole cut for the mag catch)
Pat

**Kowalski** · 05-21-11, 20:32

The things that it takes to get a M4C lurker out of their hole..

Both of my Saigas ran without issue out of the box. I bought my first years before the current spike in cost, at the time one could pick up either Saiga 12s or 20s for $250-380 per.. I don't know if I'd have bought one at current prices.

There were a number of early models that were quite unreliable, unaffectionately known as "vodka specials", as a previous poster mentioned. No longer a problem with more current production.

The manufacturing tolerances are not extremely consistent, so functionality with any particular load may vary from gun to gun. Mine shot whatever I loaded in them. Others may have difficulty with some birdshot loads, such as with some of the cheap universal Walmart stuff, for example. It's just necessary to find those that work well on your individual gun. Winchester AA's are one of the better choices for light loads. Buckshot loads don't seem to have the feeding issues that some report on the light stuff.

The gas piston may require cleaning for proper function anywhere from several hundred to several thousand rounds. That said, on my range Saiga I haven't cleaned the piston in around 2,800 rounds, more out of curiosity than anything, and despite incredible amounts of fouling, I have yet to encounter any issues with it impacting function.

The only problems I've experienced have been with aftermarket box mags. AGP Gen 1s can have feeding issues. Both of mine required disassembly and sanding for proper function, and I keep them only for range use. AGP Gen 2s are good, though the factory Izhmash 5 and 8 round mags are built like tanks (metal internal reinforcement, Russian milspec polymer/springs, etc), and might be the best choice if one is willing to pay the cost. The Izhmash 8s will run you $120-$150 per mag, and are hard to find. Many report good experiences with the Surefire 10 and 12 rounders, though I can't speak from experience. Some report deformation of shells left in 10 and 12 round mags for prolonged periods of time, inhibiting proper feeding, as well as tensile strength issues with the springs on some brands of 12 rounders left loaded, though I've had neither of these issues with 10 round AGP Gen 2s.

The mags are rock and lock like other Saigas and AKs. Loading full mags on a closed bolt has been a reported difficulty, though I didn't have an issue with it. Could be mag design, or simply the inherent differences in tolerances from gun to gun. Some Saiga gunsmiths do a mod specifically to make loading on a closed bolt easier with 8 and 10 round magazines, though again, my Saigas didn't have an issue with that even prior to the trip to Tromix.

As earlier posters noted, there are aftermarket gas regulators available to adjust your gas up or down depending on the needs of your individual gun. Functionality and recoil on any given load can change noticeably, depending on your gas setting.

Good mags are perhaps your biggest concern as far as reliability goes. As far as modifications, there are pros out there that are willing to do nearly anything you can think up to a Saiga, from basic reliability tweaks to truly crazy stuff. Tromix, R&R, Etac, Red Jacket, Cadiz.. though the legal modifications are more limited in NJ. Take a look around the Saiga-12.com forums, and search the information that has been posted. There are a a few people there who know a lot.

**M&P15OR** · 05-21-11, 21:07

As I mentioned earlier the "vodka specials" were the ones that gave guys fits as most of them had gas ports partially covered up or completely covered up this issue has been resolved as far as I have heard and can be easily remedied if you happened to get one as Cadiz will take it and fix it and tune it for you under the warranty. The gas ports being partially blocked was why it would be hit and miss with light loads. Mine worked right out of the box and I've had mine for 2 years now and it's a 3 port gun. I got mine for around $400.00 new so if I had to spend $800.00 for one I might take a hard look at the Turkish 12ga that looks like an AR. Tony Rumore has one already in SBS form and says it's a very promising shotgun.

**Redline** · 05-22-11, 08:25

Originally Posted by M&P15OR

On your Saiga rifle are you using surplus mags or mags made specifically for the Saiga? Could be part of your problem changing mags. Surplus mags take some filing to the mag release and the mag itself to work smoothly.

They are Izhmash oem mags. I just tried it and it wasn't as bad as I remember. But if I try to insert it slightly tilted to the left or right it won't go in. Part of the prob is that I'm used to the ar15 ergonomics. I have a similar prob on my mini 14 and m1a.

**Docwade** · 01-02-12, 18:48

I've had four, individuals from several different importers. They are more friendly to tinker with than most shotguns. If you like a project, they are well worth your time.

**rundm** · 01-03-12, 23:36

Mine ran reliably right out of the box. I sent the couple that I purchased and one of my friends to a certain gun smith that converts them and they came back all screwed up. Only one of them shot when they got back and the cover would fly off of it when it did. I have not gotten back around to taking them back to him. I would not buy something/anything from him again. Again, the guns were rock solid reliable before they left so I would definately buy a new one again.