Foray into the land of bolt guns

[JStor]

Depending on your budget and how heavy a rifle you want, don't rule out the Winchester 70 Heavy Varmint model, also referred to as the "Stealth."

The versions from the 1990s are the ones I would look for, and the heavy 26 inch barrel can be cut to the desired length. These came with HS Precision fiberglass stocks of the Winchester Marksman design, a very comfortable stock. They aren't a McMillan, but they work well. These short action Model 70s had the push feed bolt and shoot quite accurately.

[carbinero]

If you decide to go with a Howa, check with Mel on sniper central, he builds an entry level tactical rifle package around the Howa 1500. He puts out a pretty solid package for the money and I wouldn't hesitate to pick one up if I were in the market.

http://www.snipercentral.com/scrifle...ml?packageid=1

If I were you, I'd order one of these, cut to 20" and be happy.

But I'm not you, since I'd buy a 700...so there ya go!

[orkan]

You yourself just said that they are fantastic shooters AFTER you get their actions trued, replace the trigger, and put on a better stock.

Wow... seems like your reading skills could use a little work.

All the SPS tacticals I've had my hands on shot sub moa BARE BONES STOCK with no modifications. Any mods simply made them better.

Anyway, sounds like you sure know a lot about remingtons... what for never having owned one and all.

Good luck.

[Gutshot John]

I always find the psychology behind these threads interesting. Though the content itself almost certainly devolves into a pissing match between two parties.

Invariably the asker wants someone to justify the choices they've already made or rather than actually have to make an arbitrary/irrelevant/personal choice wants to have someone make the decisions for them.

Of course if someone offers an opinion, experience (or evidence) contradictory to the choice that's been made (one in which they've made some amount of emotional investment) they get a bit bent out of shape.

If they've already done research on sniper's hide, what do they think they're going to get here that hasn't already been said?

The distinctions between this stock and that stock, or this action or that action are completely personal taste and ultimately irrelevant. For under $1000 they're also distinctions without any real difference.

Why ask at all? You've done your research Just make the choice, take it out and shoot, and live your life free of the opinions of others. Who cares what people think? You're not going to glean some mystical wisdom that's going to make one iota of difference in what kind of shooter you become.

[orkan]

Invariably the asker wants someone to justify the choices they've already made or rather than actually have to make an arbitrary/irrelevant/personal choice wants to have someone make the decisions for them.

Very good observation. Very accurate, in my opinion. When someone with zero experience tries to talk as an authority because of what he read, it's tough to draw any other conclusion.

Whats worse, is the asker somehow feels more intelligent because he's coming to "ask the pro's," yet won't take advice given by people with volumes more experience if it is contrary to the decision he's already made.

I disagree on one part john, and that is the decisions made below $1000 not mattering. Buying the correct rifle ensures the ability to transform it into something more desirable if one so chooses later. Beyond that, you are right... someone looking to get a $1000 rifle complete with optics isn't going to have the ability to determine what helps or hurts him for quite some time anyway.

[Powder_Burn]

My budget for getting started is about $1,000. Including glass, if reasonable.

I've done a lot of research up front, and have more or less narrowed it down to two options: Howa 1500, or Tikka T3.

I would suggest the Howa over the Tikka as it is a better value. The Howa 1500 is a less refined copy of a pre-72 Sako L579 action that uses a forged/machined action and a one piece bolt. Timney makes a trigger and many aftermarket stocks are available. For such a tight budget, a used Weatherby sub-MOA varmint might be a decent compromise as it's made by Howa. Some shipped with low end B&C stocks that are likely better than the typical junk factory stocks out there. If it needs a crown, it is a $75 job. Also budget $3 for Krylon to conceal the obscene NASCAR inspired roll marks.

Remington certainly puts a lot of value on the table since upgrade options and the knowledge base are endless. They also have flaws like any other platform. I have seen bolt handles break off 700's and my local shop was shipped SPS's with off center bores. A cheap 700 has a different level of QC than an M24. Practical accuracy with any of these rifles should not be difficult to attain.

[BrigandTwoFour]

I always find the psychology behind these threads interesting. Though the content itself almost certainly devolves into a pissing match between two parties.

Invariably the asker wants someone to justify the choices they've already made or rather than actually have to make an arbitrary/irrelevant/personal choice wants to have someone make the decisions for them.

Of course if someone offers an opinion, experience (or evidence) contradictory to the choice that's been made (one in which they've made some amount of emotional investment) they get a bit bent out of shape.

Clearly I've stepped on somebody's toes by merely suggesting that someone might have a different opinion about a particular firearm.

I'm not looking for validation about a decision, or for anyone to make it for me. I'm looking for information based on personal experience. Right at the beginning, I asked if anyone has other options I could look at besides the two listed, only one alternative was offered, and then I was promptly burned at the stake for mentioning things I've seen that bring that gun into question.

Some people just seem more interested in validating their own decisions by pushing it on others, just like the rest of these boards when it comes to BCM/Noveske/LMT/Colt. That's fine, but I don't buy into it. That kind of brand fanaticism is little better than gun-shop speculation.

The bottom line here is that I did a lot of reading, came up with a couple ideas, and asked for pros and cons between them from people who have actually handled them. I figured that it was better to go that route than post yet another "I want a budget build, what's the best bolt gun for under $1K?" thread that you all love so much.

Why ask at all? You've done your research Just make the choice, take it out and shoot, and live your life free of the opinions of others. Who cares what people think? You're not going to glean some mystical wisdom that's going to make one iota of difference in what kind of shooter you become.

Personally, I'd rather ask now before I buy it instead of buying it and finding out that it doesn't work as advertised. How many threads are there in these forums of people who went out and put together an AR from pile of parts and thought it would be amazing, only to find out it can't cycle more than five rounds without grinding to a halt? Opinions are nice, but I am really looking for personal experience with them.

Perhaps I should just walk away because I'm not willing to spend 4K on the rifle and another 3K on an optic yet, is that what you are expecting of everyone who ventures into this forum?

Anyway, no more pissing matches. It's not helpful.

Orkan, thank you for the input. I looked at a lot of SPS tacticals, I even went out and handled an AAC-SD today on your recommendation. I'm sure that it would work just fine, even though I noticed the bolt was definitely not as smooth as other ones I handled. Have you handled/shot any other rifles that I could look at that compare to the Remingtons? What issues have you seen come up with the Rem 700s that might bite a new bolt shooter in the ass?

For those than own the Tikka, have you noticed any issues with the little aluminum stock-mounted recoil lug? My biggest concern with the Tikka is the long-term durability of that configuration (and the potential difficulty with bedding).

[Gutshot John]

Allow me to clarify, its not that they dont matter in terms of actual performance, its just that performance differences will be negligible for the novice shooter. A better rifle is a better rifle, but it's skill and experience that makes a bigger difference.

What matters more than rifle/accessory choice is acquiring the necessary skill set. FNH, Tikka, Howa, Remington or Winchester...these choices matter little as they all make comparable rifles for the stated price range.

A bigger question is whether the OP is willing to invest the same amount of money/time into getting trained or getting out and shooting. Given everything, I think the choice is more appealing than the reality. Like a bad romantic comedy that loses its edge once the protagonists finally shtuup, once the choice has been made, the allure will wear off.

[Gutshot John]

I'm not looking for validation about a decision, or for anyone to make it for me. I'm looking for information based on personal experience.

Than my suggestion to you is forget this nonsense as everyone is simply going to suggest the choice that they've already made. There is no way for you to validate which choice is better for you simply because you lack the experience. Many of the guy's on sniper's hide know their shit, many don't, but determining who does and who doesn't becomes an exercise in frustration, more importantly what works for one may not work for you.

If you think there is any real difference between a Tikka, Howa and Remington, you're kidding yourself.

Go take a precision shooting class, preferably one that will lend you one of their rifles, get some trigger time and figure out what works for you (more importantly what doesn't) BEFORE you invest your $1K.

[NUTT]

I have 2 bolt action centerfire rifles: A Winchester M70 30.06 that I hunt with and a Remington 700 5R that I use for precision shooting.

The Win is a lighter weight, wood stocked hunting rifle and needed some smith work (bed, float, true, trigger & crown), but now shoots under 1/2 inch. The Rem shoots under 1/2 inch straight out of the box, although it is a heavy barrel target rifle.

The Win target (precision, sniper, tactical whatever you'd like to call it) rifles I've handled and seen on the line all shoot great. So do all of the Rem target rifles I've seen. Some have had work, most are straight out of the box.

This includes the AAC SD and the SPS Tactical mentioned above. Both are good shooters capable of 1,000 yards right out of the box.

Regardless of your rifle choice, I'd say take a look at the SWFA SS scopes. You can get a fixed 10, 16 or 20 power for $300. The glass is clear enough to shoot 1,000 yards and repeatable. If you have mirage to deal with often, I'd recommend staying away from the 20 because you can't dial down.

For the budget, it is hard to go wrong if you can live with a fixed power scope. I'm just now upgrading my 10x and have used it in a precision rifle class. It performed great and I'll be keeping it for a spare.