View Poll Results: Rank each S2S trigger you own....

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  • 5 Star

    12 44.44%
  • 4 Star

    9 33.33%
  • 3 Star

    4 14.81%
  • 2 Star

    1 3.70%
  • 1 Star

    1 3.70%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Geissele's new Super 2 Stage trigger (S2S).....

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Underwhere View Post
    Maybe I'll just get an American Trigger Corp Gold trigger.
    Those things are ridiculously nice. Amazingly short reset. Nice break. Not carot or glass like the Geissele but the reset is awesomely short.
    Where did this come from....nobody is stopping you from going out and getting a $250-300 gucci gun trigger that is a superstar at the local range. The best thing about those triggers are the fact that they are newb friendly and incorporate the ghey self contained design. The only real hard use triggers besides a g.i. trigger are...
    1.GA
    2.KAC
    3.LMT

    The others are made for weekend warriors and competition..period.

    If you wanna discuss those trigger's I'd suggest either starting another thread or using the orange search button. I'm not liking how this is starting to trend.

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRIDENT82 View Post
    Where did this come from....nobody is stopping you from going out and getting a $250-300 gucci gun trigger that is a superstar at the local range. The best thing about those triggers are the fact that they are newb friendly and incorporate the ghey self contained design. The only real hard use triggers besides a g.i. trigger are...
    1.GA
    2.KAC
    3.LMT

    The others are made for weekend warriors and competition..period.
    Is it gucci because of the price? Because I have a Geissele SD-E too which is just about $225.

    I know quite a few people putting the American Trigger Gold to "hard use". If it's a "superstar" at the range...then even better. I'm not sure how any of those things is a downside to a trigger. Not sure what qualifies a trigger as a "hard use trigger".

    I'll shoot whatever is reliable and my finger likes.
    Last edited by Underwhere; 07-26-11 at 01:53.

  3. #93
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Underwhere View Post
    I'll shoot whatever is reliable and my finger likes.
    Which is great, but this particular thread is about the S2S, and it's comparison to comparable triggers.
    If you want to discuss/review other triggers based on your preference, feel free to start another thread. I am not saying this to quiet you, simply to make the information more available to those looking for it. Further, criticism of the S2S is absolutely fine, but let the company have the opportunity to make you happy.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  4. #94
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Utah
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    To understand the trigger trace graphs, there must be an understanding of what's being shown compared to the operation of the trigger.

    There is a distinct difference between slack and a first stage.
    SLACK This is the amount of motion the trigger goes through before engaging the sear. Taking up the slack does not move the sear or perform any other function. It's simply wasted motion.
    SINGLE STAGE A single stage trigger is one that has no travel before engaging the sear to break the shot. A single stage trigger can have slack.
    TWO STAGE A two stage trigger is one that has travel before engaging the sear. It differs from slack as it's part of the trigger design. Two stage triggers often use a physical block that will prevent the sear from releasing the hammer/striker if the rifle experiences a hard jar. The first stage disengages this block before engaging the sear, which is the second stage.

    The 1911 trigger is a single stage and the initial travel shown on the graph is slack regardless of what they label it. Although I have not personally verified this, I understand the Gold Trigger is also a single stage.

    The graphs start with trigger bow at rest with no pressure at all. Since pressure is needed to move the trigger bow, the graph shows the amount needed to overcome the slack. You would see a slight amount of slack before engaging the first stage of a two stage trigger as well. That doesn't mean the two stage has a "first" first stage.

    Trident, all mechanical triggers have creep. They must have creep or the sears would not engage. Creep is the movement of the sears towards their point of release. What we want, is minimal movement that is smooth without loss of reliability. Long smooth creep is preferable to short gritty creep. The carrot break of the SSA is from it's creep. Very smooth creep, but creep nonetheless.

    Don't get too wrapped around the axle about this single S2S having more creep than the others. It's a new trigger using new processes and materials and Geisselle has a good track record of taking care of it's customers. Underwhere states the extra creep is very slight and as such, may be no trouble at all
    Last edited by MistWolf; 07-26-11 at 14:11.
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmart View Post
    You get what you pay for. Geissele offers various triggers at various price points with different levels of adjustability. If you want a creep free trigger, shell out $279 for their top of the line trigger. If you're only willing to pay $150, then accept that it may be less than perfect.
    Yes, this. I just can't fathom the criticisms of the S2S as being not quite as good as the SSA, when the S2S is specifically intended as a budget model to compete with the RRA and perhaps others (CMMG, Armalite, LMT, ?) in the lower price range, and it costs a lot less than the SSA in percentage terms. It's not as if Geissele is calling the S2S the best trigger of all time - they are calling it a budget option for those who can't or won't spend more for the premium triggers. I've read enough about the RRA to know I won't ever buy one. I use two of the Armalite 2-stage triggers, and they are very good for the price ($120 gets you a complete LPK with them), but if I took my SSA and made it slightly grittier/creepier it would still be a far nicer trigger than the Armalite 2-stage. And really, with a savings of $45 that only buys 100-120 rounds of 5.56 ammo, it might just be worthwhile to get the SSA if you're concerned you won't be happy with the S2S.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Underwhere View Post
    Maybe I'll just get an American Trigger Corp Gold trigger.
    Those things are ridiculously nice. Amazingly short reset. Nice break. Not carot or glass like the Geissele but the reset is awesomely short.
    Which is good? What is good about a very short reset? What is bad about a light trigger with a short reset on a semi auto is doubling, even trippling.

  7. #97
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    Feb 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Which is great, but this particular thread is about the S2S, and it's comparison to comparable triggers.
    If you want to discuss/review other triggers based on your preference, feel free to start another thread. I am not saying this to quiet you, simply to make the information more available to those looking for it. Further, criticism of the S2S is absolutely fine, but let the company have the opportunity to make you happy.
    Yeah, it was just a comment in passing. Wasn't expecting to create a separate discussion.

    I wasn't here to criticize the S2S but give my experiences after buying 3 of them. I think my comments were pretty unbiased. I've contacted Geissele and have reported their comments for the rest of the forum to know. I'm shipping the trigger to them and will post my findings when I get it back.

    I don't have any beef with Geissele. I like their triggers.

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeOtherGuy View Post
    Yes, this. I just can't fathom the criticisms of the S2S as being not quite as good as the SSA
    I don't think anyone is criticizing the S2S vs the SSA. I have an issue with an S2S vs two other S2S's. They should all be pretty similar and they aren't.

    I don't think anyone is comparing them to more expensive higher quality triggers. My S2S's don't compare to my SD-E nor do I think it should for the price.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim View Post
    Which is good? What is good about a very short reset? What is bad about a light trigger with a short reset on a semi auto is doubling, even trippling.
    I've never seen doubling or tripling with the people I shoot with (who have that trigger)
    Last edited by Underwhere; 07-26-11 at 19:59.

  8. #98
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    The Skinny

    Gents,

    The SSF, SSA, SD-C and S2S are COMBAT triggers. They are designed to be reliable in all conditions and suitable for stress shooting situations. Under stress, fine motor skills degrade. If these triggers had crisp breaks the 2nd stage could not be controlled when under stress.

    In this video that Underwhere put online you can see the carrot like break in operation. He comes up to the stop and during the break you see the trigger move back a fair amount. On one of the triggers you see a stop/start movement. This is due to the milled sear that is rougher than our edm sears.

    I think Underwhere sent his trigger in to our shop and I looked at it. It had this stop/start break. I took a stone to the sear and it went away. The 2nd stage sear engagement was right where it should be. By stoning I put "rounds" on the trigger, just shooting it would have done the same thing.

    The Geissele COMBAT triggers have the carrot like break. In the edm cut combat triggers the sear surfaces slide across each other very smoothly, once they start moving they don't stop. On the milled sear the rougher surfaces may or may not stop once they get moving.

    There is creep in our combat triggers because of significant sear engagement. I designed the SSF, SSA, SD-C and S2S combat triggers with this significant sear engagement and therefore designed creep into the trigger. Say Again: I designed creep into these triggers. I did it deliberately.

    This creep does a couple of things: It makes the trigger reliable under high round counts, it allows abrasive wear to occur without compromising the function of the trigger, it helps proper operation in full automatic weapons (timing during automatic fire) and it enables the trigger to be used properly under high stress.

    If the creep was not designed into the trigger the trigger could not be controlled in a combat environment.

    The shooter perceives the creep as a consistent carrot like break on our edm triggers. There is no stop/start or objectionable feel because of the smooth, isotropic (non-directional) surface finish of the edm'ed surface.

    A milled finish has direction to it, kind of like furrows in a farm field, or ripples from throwing a stone into a pond. This directional finish is from the rotating cutter with teeth that digs into the metal and pulls a chip out. On a microscopic scale these furrows can interfere with each other and be perceived by the shooter as roughness or stop/start movement.

    So why mill a sear instead of cut the sear on an edm? In one word: time. Time=Money and therefore Money=Time. Milling is 30 to 50 times faster than edm and an extra $250,000 edm machine is not needed. (the triggers have to be on the milling machine anyway).

    The S2S is designed to a price point. This is why the sears are milled, because milling is faster and if I can get the triggers off the mill quickly and not have to put them on the edm I can offer a reliable, well performing trigger cheaper than our edm'ed triggers. But you give something up for a lower price and what is given up is the beautiful, smooth, frosted glass-like sear and velvetly pull of our SSA. The pull of the $125 S2S is good but not at the same level of the $170 SSA.

    Going back to how the break feels on our triggers: If the shooter wants a crisp break he needs to decide what his stress level will be when shooting. If low stress he is TARGET shooting (sorry about all the caps but I want to make a point). If high stress he is COMBAT shooting.

    If Underwhere was getting shot at, his S2S trigger will feel like a glass rod when it breaks and he will be able to control that break so he can put rounds where they need to go when the proverbial buffalo chips are hitting the fan and his buddies and Nation are counting on him.

    If underwhere is in his basement drinking a cool one, listening to the radio and messing with his guns and cool stuff his S2S may very well show some creep.

    For TARGET shooting when the shooter desires a crisp trigger our Hi-Speed Match trigger is the way to go. With the adjusted in 6oz break, 0.003 thou sear 2nd stage sear engagement, glass like sear finishes, trigger bow moved forward 3/16" and to top it off a 4.4 millisecond lock time the Geissele Hi-Speed trigger will read the shooters mind when he wants that hammer to drop.

    To summarize: If you want a crisp break buy the Hi-Speed. If you want non-adjustability and crispness buy an SSA-E or SD-E. If you want a crisp 2nd stage break and you bought an S2S, SSA, SSF or SD-C you very well may be disappointed. You bought the wrong trigger and you are asking it to do something it was not designed to do.

    Well I hoped this reply helped somehow. Let me know if anyone has any other questions and I'll try and answer them. I don't get on this board too often so you might want to email me directly. I better get to bed now because tomorrow I am practicing for the new NDM (National Defense Match) at Camp Perry.

    I am shooting a stock Colt 6940 with an SSA trigger. I expect my stress level to be kind of high when that shot timer is running......

    WHG

  9. #99
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagmill View Post
    Gents,

    The SSF, SSA, SD-C and S2S are COMBAT triggers. They are designed to be reliable in all conditions and suitable for stress shooting situations. Under stress, fine motor skills degrade. If these triggers had crisp breaks the 2nd stage could not be controlled when under stress.

    In this video that Underwhere put online you can see the carrot like break in operation. He comes up to the stop and during the break you see the trigger move back a fair amount. On one of the triggers you see a stop/start movement. This is due to the milled sear that is rougher than our edm sears.

    I think Underwhere sent his trigger in to our shop and I looked at it. It had this stop/start break. I took a stone to the sear and it went away. The 2nd stage sear engagement was right where it should be. By stoning I put "rounds" on the trigger, just shooting it would have done the same thing.

    The Geissele COMBAT triggers have the carrot like break. In the edm cut combat triggers the sear surfaces slide across each other very smoothly, once they start moving they don't stop. On the milled sear the rougher surfaces may or may not stop once they get moving.

    There is creep in our combat triggers because of significant sear engagement. I designed the SSF, SSA, SD-C and S2S combat triggers with this significant sear engagement and therefore designed creep into the trigger. Say Again: I designed creep into these triggers. I did it deliberately.

    This creep does a couple of things: It makes the trigger reliable under high round counts, it allows abrasive wear to occur without compromising the function of the trigger, it helps proper operation in full automatic weapons (timing during automatic fire) and it enables the trigger to be used properly under high stress.

    If the creep was not designed into the trigger the trigger could not be controlled in a combat environment.

    The shooter perceives the creep as a consistent carrot like break on our edm triggers. There is no stop/start or objectionable feel because of the smooth, isotropic (non-directional) surface finish of the edm'ed surface.

    A milled finish has direction to it, kind of like furrows in a farm field, or ripples from throwing a stone into a pond. This directional finish is from the rotating cutter with teeth that digs into the metal and pulls a chip out. On a microscopic scale these furrows can interfere with each other and be perceived by the shooter as roughness or stop/start movement.

    So why mill a sear instead of cut the sear on an edm? In one word: time. Time=Money and therefore Money=Time. Milling is 30 to 50 times faster than edm and an extra $250,000 edm machine is not needed. (the triggers have to be on the milling machine anyway).

    The S2S is designed to a price point. This is why the sears are milled, because milling is faster and if I can get the triggers off the mill quickly and not have to put them on the edm I can offer a reliable, well performing trigger cheaper than our edm'ed triggers. But you give something up for a lower price and what is given up is the beautiful, smooth, frosted glass-like sear and velvetly pull of our SSA. The pull of the $125 S2S is good but not at the same level of the $170 SSA.

    Going back to how the break feels on our triggers: If the shooter wants a crisp break he needs to decide what his stress level will be when shooting. If low stress he is TARGET shooting (sorry about all the caps but I want to make a point). If high stress he is COMBAT shooting.

    If Underwhere was getting shot at, his S2S trigger will feel like a glass rod when it breaks and he will be able to control that break so he can put rounds where they need to go when the proverbial buffalo chips are hitting the fan and his buddies and Nation are counting on him.

    If underwhere is in his basement drinking a cool one, listening to the radio and messing with his guns and cool stuff his S2S may very well show some creep.

    For TARGET shooting when the shooter desires a crisp trigger our Hi-Speed Match trigger is the way to go. With the adjusted in 6oz break, 0.003 thou sear 2nd stage sear engagement, glass like sear finishes, trigger bow moved forward 3/16" and to top it off a 4.4 millisecond lock time the Geissele Hi-Speed trigger will read the shooters mind when he wants that hammer to drop.

    To summarize: If you want a crisp break buy the Hi-Speed. If you want non-adjustability and crispness buy an SSA-E or SD-E. If you want a crisp 2nd stage break and you bought an S2S, SSA, SSF or SD-C you very well may be disappointed. You bought the wrong trigger and you are asking it to do something it was not designed to do.

    Well I hoped this reply helped somehow. Let me know if anyone has any other questions and I'll try and answer them. I don't get on this board too often so you might want to email me directly. I better get to bed now because tomorrow I am practicing for the new NDM (National Defense Match) at Camp Perry.

    I am shooting a stock Colt 6940 with an SSA trigger. I expect my stress level to be kind of high when that shot timer is running......

    WHG
    That puts it all to bed.

    Thanks for the work on the trigger. I got back late last night from some business travel and found it in my mailbox.

    I threw it in my rifle and it does feel better (going from memory). It's not exactly like my other 2 triggers but still very nice. Like you said these are combat triggers.

    And the whole thing about being in the basement with a cool one? It's been a long week. I think I may do that tonight.

    Thanks for the great service.
    Last edited by Underwhere; 08-05-11 at 19:23.

  10. #100
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Virginia
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    Glad most like them. I am still waiting on my from DSG arms. They still have not recieved their order and well I have a list of stuff getting sent at one time. I hate shipping fees.

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