New Winchester 97 "Trench Gun" repro

[Slater]

Just got this from Bud's and the overall quality is not bad for a Chinese gun. I noticed that the front bead is installed slightly off center. It's attached to the heatshield/bayonet lug assembly, so I'm not sure if there's any way to tweak it back to center or not.

The Missouri Walnut wood is nice, and overall not a bad rendition of the old "Trench Broom".

[bigghoss]

very nice! I wouldn't mind getting one of those. I have an IA hawk 982 and it's not terrible. not nearly as smooth as my real 870 but I love the ghost ring sights.

[1911-A1]

I also got one of the trench guns a few months back. I haven't shot it yet, but it's smooth and cycles well. I'm going to stick to buckshot, I think.

[ChicagoTex]

How much did it run you?

[Slater]

This was $366 shipped from Bud's.

[DeathMetal]

Let us know how it holds up.

[MadDog]

The stock on your generation is much better then mine. I have a first generation that I picked up about 6 or 7 years ago. I don't know what type of wood it is but it was dipped in a thick white primer and then dunked in a walnut looking "paint". My '97 runs great and certainly is a lot cheaper then a real Winchester '97 that is shootable.

Have any idea where you can find a bayonette for that?

MadDog

[Slater]

Originals can be found from time to time on Gunbroker, gunshows, etc. This is a pretty decent repro:

http://www.ima-usa.com/militaria/edg...tor-grade.html

[Slater]

For those interested, the following is from Coyote Cap, the gunsmith who helped set up production of these new 97's:





Norinco Generations

Knowing what generation of Chinese built shotgun can be frustrating to say the least.

As I see it, there are only three or four people that can actually tell what generation you may have by the serial numbers. These people are the Shandong #1 plant manager, (Mr. Goa), the plant production supervisor, (Mr. Wang) and myself, and maybe the new plant owner, (Mr. Menn).

The reason I state this is because when I sent in recommended changes to a preceding "batch" (or shipment of 1,600 shotguns to Interstate Arms), in an effort to improve the quality and reliability of these shotguns for Interstate Arms Corp; the changes were made sometimes right in the middle of production, and therefore, one would have to know the serial number of the first gun in those major generational changes.

The only other way is to tear a whole lot of them apart in a warranty repair program, where the serial numbers are written down and logged into the B.A.T.F. in and out log book, and you have a stack of warranty and action job tickets which you can use to compare, to see almost exactly when those major changes became reality.

It is pretty obvious when you work on a lot of them, and you know just what to look for.

Having said that, there is a general (incorrect) assumption that the generational changes can be figured out by the (3) starting numbers of each serial number.

(Example): 998XXXX (1998/1999), 000XXXX (2000), 010XXXX (2001), 020XXXX (2002), 030XXXX (2003) and 040XXXX (2004). All these numbers tell you is what year the frame was cast, milled and serial numbered.

A 1st and 2nd. generation, yes, but subsequent generational changes were so numerous, that they were lumped together right in the middle of production, and this started in 2001 with serial numbers starting 010XXXX (7 digits), and continued until 0103200 (approx) as the 3rd. generation of modifications and improvements.

The 4th generation started just after those numbers and included (among other things) a major change to American Walnut stocks from Missouri.

So, if you have a serial number in the 0104500 range, it will have pretty nice walnut stocks, an upgraded carrier (at the cam pivot circle), an improved left extractor and a narrower, lightened firing pin (to prevent breakage from dry firing).

The 5th generation is far easier to identify because the pistol grip on the walnut butt stocks was changed to the (E) model flat (not rounded) design of the original (E) model Winchester 97.

Also, all "Trench Guns" are of the 5th generation and are actually pretty good guns, as the metallurgical tolerances were much more closely watched, and also, these guns had some more internal changes, to include another change to the firing pin, (to make it safer), and upgrade to the ejector, right extractor and an improved and much lighter and thinner mainspring.
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Now we get into the new stuff that I took over to china last year. These improvements are:

1. a new .028 ejector (Rockwell tested)

2. a new firing pin with an additional weight reduction cut-out (above the retaining pin) and new rebound spring.

3. a new mag tube spring and follower

4. a new and longer,(more threads) slide end cap and modified forearm wood to fit the new cap.

5. a re-designed carrier, at the "S" cam area on the left side of the carrier.

6. a re-designed bolt, at the point where the change to the carrier would hit the bolt (this has been milled away).

7. a new hammer design at the thumb spur.

8. a new fully adjustable mainspring.

These changes all constitute a 6th generation with serial numbers above 0306500 and these shotguns are of the I.A.C./S.D.-1 Import and they came in 20" (cyl. bore constriction) and 26" (modified constriction) barrel lengths and "standard" grade American Walnut stocks.

Then there are the "Special Edition" (WCSE models) and they have all the upgrades and then some extra "special" items.

Those items are shown clearly on the I.P.B. (Illustrated Parts Breakdown) that comes with each firearm.

I hope this clears up some of the mystery of the generational changes of the model 97's.

Coyote Cap
SASS Life #14184

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4th or 5th Generation Guns

One way to know for sure is to point the barrel up in the air (like you were at the unloading table), cock the hammer all the way to the rear with your thumb, then push the button in, which is located on the upper right side of the frame (above the trigger and below the hammer).

This releases the slide lock.

While holding the slide release button in, pull back on the slide just a little, (about an inch and 1/2) and watch to see if the bolt drops back and becomes very loose.

The spring pressure from the left and right extractors will help to push the bolt rearward.

If the bolt comes completely unhooked, don't be surprised, as this was a common problem in 2nd, 3rd and early 4th generation Norinco 97's.

The problem usually only shows itself with the barrel pointed upwards and the hammer is all the way to full cock, (taking pressure off the bolt).

If the barrel is pointed downwards (like when you are shooting at cowboy targets) or horizontal, the problem doesn't seem to exist.

What is happening is the slide cam to hook tolerance is too wide.

This tolerance should be no more than .010 of an inch. If the bolt moves a great deal, then the tolerance is so wide (probably more than 1/16 of an inch), then the slide is unhooking too soon from the bolt hook and allowing it to fall back.

To get the gun to operate again, simply point the barrel downward and push the bolt all the way forward to re-engage the slide cam hook.

Just about all the lock-up problems with the old Norinco 97's are caused in one way or the other by tolerances that are off.

Usually, one can simply push the bolt forward and the gun is operable once again.

Far too often though, well meaning folks try to unlock a Norinco (or Winchester for that matter), and they go at it like a Bull in a China shop and actually do more damage to the gun, and then blame the gunsmith.

This is a good reason why larger matches should have a competent gunsmith on call (on the firing line, to clear jammed firearms).

It is the right and safe thing to do.

If the gun you are looking at, has this problem, then the cure is obviously warranty, which several competent gunsmiths can take care of.

What needs to be done is to wire weld the leading angled edge of the slide cam just enough so you can hone it back down to tolerance.

If it is used and out of warranty, and it has this problem, the gun should sell cheaply, or avoid it all together and simply buy a newer shotgun with a serial number in the 030 range.

That is my advice, for what it is worth.

Coyote Cap
SASS LIFE #14184