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Thread: S&W Melonite coated barrel vs Noveske chrome lined barrel.

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbsmwd View Post
    So where do you go to get a mid-length 4150 barrel that's NOT recce/DMR/heavy profile but is nitride treated.
    I don't know, but just get a chrome-lined one if you can't find one you like that is nitrided. Also, just like chrome lining, there is a lot that can go wrong with not doing nitriding correctly - and I only know enough about how Sig, AAC, Remington, and Bushmaster does it to trust those specific processes. So I would not automatically buy a barrel that is nitrided because they may not know how to do it well.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by montrala View Post
    Chrome lining as way to improve small arms barrels longevity was first massively used to make up for poor steel used for war time production in Soviet Union and to make up to complete lack of weapon maintenance by uneducated soviet masses rushed to front, shooting corrosive ammo.
    Is it possible you could provide a published reference to back this statement up?

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfscheer View Post
    Seems like good advice maybe but you guys should think twice before treating parts that are critical to safe operation through an irreversible heat treatment without the ability to destructively test to verify. To me, it would be especially ironic for someone to be running a Mil-Spec HPT/MPI bolt in conjunction with a barrel that was once HPT/MPI certified but is now in unknown condition. The big concern is that without extensive testing, you really have no idea what has happened to your safety margins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Amen.

    People should stop playing with the material properties of critical parts in ways they do not understand.
    So, you guys don't think it's possible to nitride a barrel w/out changing the barrels properties in an unsafe manner? In talking to the guy that I bought my barrel from he cited that the nitriding processes are not anything new or unique, even in the firearms industry, and that there are well established standardized industrial processes that have been used for a long time for things more critical than rifle barrels in some cases.

    So, with above in mind, it just seems that since nitriding is being seen as the "new" thing it is natural to have a healthy dose of skepticism/suspicion about it.

    I, for one, am open to anything new that may be an improvement. And, yes, I am aware that not all that glitters is gold, but it's good to have an open mind in order to see whether something is just as good as the mil-spec (which I believe is a good base line) or, maybe, just maybe, better.

    ETA: And, so far, it seems that nitriding is a bit better, in regards to barrel longevity, when comparing it to a chrome lined barrel. However, if you're using a good quality blank you will have the luxury of having a more accurate barrel in comparison to a mil-spec 4150 CMV barrel. This is the part that I like and which is why I purchased my Rock Creek barrel.
    Last edited by urbankaos04; 07-08-11 at 15:46.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsilvers View Post
    Fabius,

    Your post implies nitriding is not as durable as chrome lining. That is not the case. It is superior for barrel life. There is no good reason to us chrome lining anymore other than certain customers request it.
    I hope that you're correct, because I bought an M&P 15 Sport specifically because of the melonited barrel. I was only trying to make the point that nitriding is a very nice alternative for civilian buyers and I'm glad that some manufacturers are offering it.

    Personally, I also think that nitriding is superior to chrome lining. Rockwell hardness near 70, high corrosion resistance and it does not change the dimensions of the barrel. The barrel can be machined and rifled to spec before nitriding, giving a better accuracy from the finished product.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by urbankaos04 View Post
    So, you guys don't think it's possible to nitride a barrel w/out changing the barrels properties in an unsafe manner? In talking to the guy that I bought my barrel from he cited that the nitriding processes are not anything new or unique, even in the firearms industry, and that there are well established standardized industrial processes that have been used for a long time for things more critical than rifle barrels in some cases.

    So, with above in mind, it just seems that since nitriding is being seen as the "new" thing it is natural to have a healthy dose of skepticism/suspicion about it.

    I, for one, am open to anything new that may be an improvement. And, yes, I am aware that not all that glitters is gold, but it's good to have an open mind in order to see whether something is just as good as the mil-spec (which I believe is a good base line) or, maybe, just maybe, better.

    ETA: And, so far, it seems that nitriding is a bit better, in regards to barrel longevity, when comparing it to a chrome lined barrel. However, if you're using a good quality blank you will have the luxury of having a more accurate barrel in comparison to a mil-spec 4150 CMV barrel. This is the part that I like and which is why I purchased my Rock Creek barrel.
    Exactly!!! Also, when taking into consideration all the stupid safety warnings that basically fill a Sig Sauer operators manual as well as living in a sue happy society I highly doubt these companies would be using a treatment process that would make their barrels unsafe. I've read on several different occasions that the treatment doesn't even produce enough heat to affect the heat treatment.

    Urban: that's why I really like nitriding also. I love having a 16" fighting carbine with a rugged/durable barrel but can also squeez out some extra accuracy @600yards off a bipod shooting at 12"x20" steel. I definately noticed a diff in my small sample size. My unlined/untreated barrel and my nitride barrel shoot about the same with my CL (which still shoots great) is lacking (comparatively) when it comes to LR shooting.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtyboy333 View Post
    I've read on several different occasions that the treatment doesn't even produce enough heat to affect the heat treatment.
    Do you know what the material and heat treat of the barrel extension is? The barrel extension needs to be hard on the surface of the lugs so it won't wear to excessive headspace but not be too brittle and prone to crack through the material. Those lugs contain the pressure of the round firing, a little bit of caution and testing seems prudent.

    Sig makes a barrel that was designed to be treated.

  7. #137
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    Yes, you can mess up a barrel by nitriding. In fact it is so easy to harm a barrel that it is a safe bet that many companies have not worked through the R&D and are doing harm. I am not concerned about AAC, Bushmaster, Remington, or Sig. S&W I don't know enough about them to know.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsilvers View Post
    Yes, you can mess up a barrel by nitriding. In fact it is so easy to harm a barrel that it is a safe bet that many companies have not worked through the R&D and are doing harm. I am not concerned about AAC, Bushmaster, Remington, or Sig. S&W I don't know enough about them to know.
    Smith and Wesson has been making firearms since 1853, Sig Sauer since 1852, and Remington and Colt earlier than that. I suspect that they've figured out how to make barrels without messing up the heat treatment.

    Some of the other popular AR manufacturers such as Bushmaster, Spikes Tactical, and especially Stag Arms, are relative new comers. Still, I would hope that they have an engineer or metallurgist on staff or under contract who will know whether a metal treatment like nitriding will affect the integrity of a heat treated barrel.

  9. #139
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    Bushmaster's ACR process was developed and tested by Remington.

  10. #140
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    From LWRC's website:

    "In addition the barrel extension and gas port are also surface converted minimizing barrel extension wear, increasing corrosion resistance and limiting gas port erosion. Cross sectional analysis done by HP White Laboratories before and after nitro carburizing proved the surface conversion process does not negatively interfere with the heat treat or temper of the barrel extension. LWRCI contracted HP White to conduct these tests.

    The ferritic salt bath nitro carburizing process has been proven by independent testing to be superior to chromium plating both it terms of corrosion resistance and abrasion resistance, lubricity and wear. It has been long adopted by FAMAE of Chile for use in all government small arms, and also by the Polish Military. It has been adopted by Sig Arms for use in their carbines, Glock in their pistol bores and various other large military arms manufacturers with excellent results."

    Despite all the naysayers that I keep seeing on this and other message boards, the evidence is mounting that nitro carburizing works and may be superior to chrome lining.
    Last edited by Fabius; 07-08-11 at 21:58.

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