Remington 870P Project

[Axcelea]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the shotgun hate comes from hearing and seeing to much shotgun retardation from those who are ignorant, Hollywood, and the like. I get driven into "screw shotgun" mentality with all the BS of the super spread kill cone, knock back, blows off feet, instant death, no aiming, etc until I take a step back and recount whats real about shotguns. Also wouldn't be surprised if some of the shotgun hate comes from those who thought it would be the no aiming cone of death and got smacked with reality. Or could be as GeorgiaBoy said.

In the end shotguns in the right context can be a very effective combat weapon, not to mention do a lot for sporting purposes, hunting, etc and I would say are ultimately more versatile than a given rifle or pistol.

Anyhow I have a question. Any particular reason of picking the 870? obviously a good shotgun but I am wondering if there was anything you decided really set it apart from competitors for you or in general.

[bubba04]

The park job and he wood on your old 870 looks real good. Besides being a good shooter I bet she was a looker.

I have always been partial to wood on my guns.

[Dennis]

On the whole I think we (meaning civilian defensive shooters) are getting a little carried away with military applications for things and then trying to force that into our own TTPs. I'm willing to spend the time and money to learn the shotgun and make up my own mind if I see a use for it or not.

You have a really good point about getting carried away with .mil applications and I am as guilty of this as anyone. I agree with the idea that the shotgun is actually a specialty weapon that excels in some situations, but requires extra training and practice. The primary Civilian/LE/non-warzone specific situation being close range encounters with limited targets.

I have been stuck with a shotgun as a primary duty long arm for 15 years for various reasons so decided to train with it instead of complaining. I have attended various courses including a couple by Rob Haught as well as extra Dept. training in shoothouses as well as shooting it plenty on my own. Getting competent in shooting, managing recoil, reloading, and clearing malfunctions not to mention movement and varied shooting positions is definitely more work than with a carbine. However, given the choice I'd be much happier with a good OOB or slug hit on a bad guy than a 9/40/45 or even a 5.56.

It's more work, but if it fits your misison/needs then why not? Heck, why not just to learn how to use another weapon system? Remember, shooting is fun!

Dennis.

[The Cat]

Rob, about 3gun - that bug bit me this past weekend. HARD. I think you'll like it.

Like you, I've never had a shotgun class. No training at all, really. Sure, I know how to use one - load, aim, fire.... but I won't really feel like I know how to use one until I take a class.

So, essentially, we're at about the same place shotgun-wise. And, since you're way the hell ahead of me firearms-experience-wise, I'm looking forward to seeing how you progress.

BTW - your reasoning behind the 1-shot extension - makes perfect sense. Thanks!

[WS6]

I think it's worth learning. there is a lot of shotgun-hate of late and it seems to be trendy to hate on it in certain circles. Kind of the way art school kids think they are supposed to be atheists so they are. Rather than just hate on something I know nothing about, why not learn to use it and then decide if I think there's an application for it or not?

On the whole I think we (meaning civilian defensive shooters) are getting a little carried away with military applications for things and then trying to force that into our own TTPs. I'm willing to spend the time and money to learn the shotgun and make up my own mind if I see a use for it or not.

I don't want to be in your first group, but I'm not sure if I'll fall into your second or third group ultimately.

And if I want to do 3-gun or shotgun matches, I need a shotgun of some sort. I'd rather not go down the semi-auto path for a variety of reasons, primarily cost.

My Benelli M4's have always done anything and everything I need within 150 yards. Out to 200 yards I can ring the gongs at the local range.

A lot of people limit the shotgun because they do not want to learn how THEIR shotgun performs with buck, slug, and pattern it, etc.

The shotgun is not a rifle, but out to 150 yards it will hit anything you need to hit, and it will pack a punch.

It is not a pistol, but it is no more cumbersome than one when in a firing position (extended), and offers more stability.

The shotgun when properly set-up, understood, and employed, is VERY effective in a civilian setting. In a military setting where suppressive fire and other things come into play, it's capacity is a limiting factor. The civilian should not have an issue if proper management of the weapon is performed. If you are not shooting, you are loading.

This is a very good point. Growing up in rural south Georgia my whole life has led me to be far more experienced using shotguns than any other weapon system. I am just now (over the past several years) trying my best to learn more about the carbine and pistol systems.

Knowing as much about shotguns, their ammo types, the ability to use their ammo and what ammo is best for certain choices has been very valuable to me. I don't care what the tactical guru's say, I have seen first hand countless times what a shotgun can and can't do on a deer, hogs, and other human sized animals. Results can be both devestating at times and other times you get plain confused. How can you shoot a deer with 3" 00 buck and it nearly drop in its tracks, then you shoot a deer with the same load directly at the vital area and it run 200 yards? It gets confusing and really opens your eyes with the use of shotguns in defense type scenarios. The same way a .338 can traverse the heart/lung region on a deer and it run 200 yards. The same way a skinny punk can take 30+ rounds to the chest. The same way a .22 to the arm will drop a massive biker in his tracks. The body (animal and human) is VERY durable, and each being reacts differently to being shot, and each shot impacts different organs in a different way. When shooting something, it's impossible to remove variables. Even paper. Much less a living being.

I think the reason there is so much shotgun hate is generally that its pointed to those who think shotguns ARE "do-all" weapons. They are certainly not and do have their limits. However, that does not mean they have little to no use as some "shotgun haters" think. There are many applications where a shotgun has an advantage over the defensive carbine or pistol, and vice versa. It all depends on the sitution at hand. I keep all three in my house ready to use, with the pistol being the first, shotgun second, and carbine third. If I knew what the defense situation would be, I could easily probably choose the correct weapon system. But no one can, so its all a coin toss on what to use for that situation. The shotgun can indeed "do it all" (within reason, obviously past 200 yards not so much), but it is not "the best" at many things. However, to discount it as a BAD tool is foolish. It may just not be the BEST tool.

Good luck with the 870. Enjoy the shotgun shooting.

No one thing is everything, but the shotgun does come close.

[LHS]

I know several knowledgeable folks who keep a 1-shot extension on their shotguns, and leave that extra space empty to facilitate rapid select-slug drills. Not my cup of tea, but I can at least appreciate the logic behind it.

I have been shooting shotguns all my life, and I love the weapon system. To me, there is no more devastating weapon for indoor use. It's not a carbine, and it shouldn't be compared to one for most applications. If I have to shoot something at 100 yards or more, I grab my AR. Inside the house, I'll take the 870. Part of that is familiarity: I was a hunter long before I was a defensive or competition shooter. I have more practice hitting mobile targets with shotguns than any other weapon system. I used to love ripping squirrels out of trees with my 20 gauge 870 as a kid (squirrels, by the way, make excellent pot pies). Consequently, I have far more training hours in shotgun manipulations than I do with carbine manipulations. For me, and my needs, the shotgun is generally superior to the carbine. Let the mission drive the gear.

[Dennis]

I know several knowledgeable folks who keep a 1-shot extension on their shotguns, and leave that extra space empty to facilitate rapid select-slug drills. Not my cup of tea, but I can at least appreciate the logic behind it.

I am sure I am missing something, but how does a 1rd extension help to do select slug drills other than just reducing weight?

I used to run a 1rd extension for weight and swing purposes, but finally decided that ammo was more important.

Dennis.

[R Moran]

Rob,
Looks like a 20" to me, nice project.
I think I would've went with a Hogue or Speedfeed short LOP stock. I use the pistol grip one.
I also use a Vang 1 shot extension, for the same reason, lighter weight. If you use a +1, and not utilize that space, if you need to do a select slug drill, you simply stuff a slug into the tube(there's now space for it) and run the action, now I have a slug in the chamber, and shotshell on the ground.
I also have the XS sights on the RS barrel, not a huge fan, but OK enough.
SureFire forend is the only way to go for a light.

Having said that, put me in the "shotgun hate" club. But, just like the 1911 hate club, its more about hating its fan boys, then the gun itself. And, once again the reverse elitism rears its ugly head. Much of the reasons have been mentioned in this thread.

Those who talk about, "inside shotgun" longer range I'll bring my carbine" etc. That's all fine and good, if you know exactly what the fight will be, rarely if ever is that the case.
Shotguns are certainly viable tools, but, outside of breaching, I can't see a time I would willingly choose a "gauge" over a 5.56.

Bob

[rob_s]

I was considering these sights from Trijicon but I'm resisting the urge to change things too much until I get familiar with the gun as it comes for the most part. I'm trying to take the small lessons learned about what I liked on the old gun (the +1 extension for example) and what I didn't (bead front sight on the old gun led me to the rifle sights on the new one) but not going too much further than that.

[WS6]

I was considering these sights from Trijicon but I'm resisting the urge to change things too much until I get familiar with the gun as it comes for the most part. I'm trying to take the small lessons learned about what I liked on the old gun (the +1 extension for example) and what I didn't (bead front sight on the old gun led me to the rifle sights on the new one) but not going too much further than that.

If the only reason you want them is for the tritium, I would pass. You probably have more experience with that than I do, but I know that for me, with an AR15 and an M4S90, night-sights at night were worthless unless you had a lot of time to line things up and whatnot. With a shoulder-fired weapon like a shotgun that is properly fitted to the user, I feel that "point-shooting" would work better than trying to use tritium at night. A red-dot on a rail would be king.

Just my .02 adjusted for inflation.