View Poll Results: Is Larry Vickers Bashing the 1911?

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  • Yes

    21 8.79%
  • No

    218 91.21%
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Thread: Is Larry Vickers Bashing the 1911?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptmccain View Post
    It's been interesting reading people's reactions to Larry's comments...
    These are the very scenarios that Larry is talking about when he makes clear that the 1911 has now been surpassed by sidearms that require less maintenance, less training and offer superior performance in real-world combat situations.
    I agree as one always has to "dumb down" tools for the masses. However, I don't agree that the plastic pistol offers "superior performance" as the 1911 can get the round on target as well as any which, in the end, is what it is all about. Whether or not, it does it more economically or ergonomically may be the better debate. The fact that a pistol should be for "fighting your way to a rifle" is the more important thing in "real-world combat situations."

    Also, my glasses are clear.

    Bill Tidler Jr.
    **************

    ...We have long maintained that the only accessories that a 1911 needs are a trigger you can manage, sights that you can see, and a dehorning job. That still goes.
    ~Jeff Cooper

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by wetidlerjr View Post
    I agree as one always has to "dumb down" tools for the masses. However, I don't agree that the plastic pistol offers "superior performance" as the 1911 can get the round on target as well as any which, in the end, is what it is all about. Whether or not, it does it more economically or ergonomically may be the better debate. The fact that a pistol should be for "fighting your way to a rifle" is the more important thing in "real-world combat situations."

    Also, my glasses are clear.
    So, let me get this straight..... You don't consider user replaceable parts without fitting better than the 1911 fitted parts, you don't think that sub 2" groups at 25 yards after 10k rds after cleaning are an insurmountable goal for mass produced 1911, and you do think a mass produced 1911 can outperform mass produced polymer pistols?

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by wetidlerjr View Post
    This has turned into a "He said; she said." thread that has pretty much accomplished nothing more than hitting the slippery slope of insult and innuendo.
    I agree.

    SMEs opinions are certainly of value, but there is no way they can know me, my situation, and the finer points unique to same. Taking third-hand quotes from an SME and either using them as an excuse to justify one's opinion or as a reason to get upset is just pointless.

    Yes, this is a discussion forum, and we are here to discuss, but in the case of this thread I really don't see an end in sight beyond the lock we all know is coming eventually.

  4. #104
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    It seems that military operators with real-world actual combat experience are in a better position to speak to issues involving real-world combat situations.

    1911 fan-boys who have no such experience are not in any position to pontificate on the subject, in my opinion.

    I'll listen to the experts, not couch commandoes.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptmccain View Post
    It seems that military operators with real-world actual combat experience are in a better position to speak to issues involving real-world combat situations.

    1911 fan-boys who have no such experience are not in any position to pontificate on the subject, in my opinion.

    I'll listen to the experts, not couch commandoes.
    It's not about offering opinion, it's about having enough intelligence to take the various opinions offered and make up your own mind about what's best for you. Simply blindly following the advice of someone, especially only one someone, especially when that advice may not be meant for your own situation, can be counter-productive. Ultimately you have to go out and test their advice against your own needs and situation.

  6. #106
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    Threads like this really make me think that nobody shoots anymore, they just talk about it on the internet.

    Who cares what Larry Vickers thinks? Or any of the 30 car, horse, sexual device, clock, watch bizzare analogies.

    "A 1911 is like a ferrari, and a Glock is like.."

    Oh good lord, no it isnt, its a gun. Its not "LIKE" anything. Its a gun. Evaluate it as a gun.

    Doesnt anyone have a 1911 they have actually put 5k+ rounds thru?

    1911s might be unreliable, but I know one that isnt.

    And thats the STI on in my holster.

    And I dont "Think" its reliable, I "Know" it is.

    Buy what works for you, if thats a glock, great.
    If its a 1911, great.

    But comon, do we really have to hash this over a million times?

    Dont you guys KNOW what works for you?

    Doesnt anyone shoot their guns anymore?

    I keep hearing about these 1911s that need a swedish watchmaker with a diamond file to keep running, all I can say is I have thousands upon thousands of rounds thru my dirty as heck 1911, and all I do is douse it with Mobil 1 and head off to the next match / class.

    Is replacing a recoil spring so hard?

    If I didnt read about how horribly unreliable they are on the internet, it would be news to me.

    I carry a 1911 because its thin, works great AIWB, and the spare mag is thin and slips into a pocket easily without looking like a giant sausage. And because its what I train with.

    Do I have a Glock? yes. M&P, etc.

    Are they great guns? Sure.

    Have they been MORE reliable than my 1911? In my experiance no.

    My M&P has never malfunctioned, the Glock has, but it had extractor issues, all fixed now.

    But the 1911 has had 5k+ rounds thru it with 3.. THREE malfs. Two of them were squibs. One was failure to go into battery when it was so gloppy dirty it was coming off on my hands.

    Maybe I am just the luckiest person in the world, maybe STI makes a magical gun, but cant we talk about our own personal experiances as opposed to equating things with cars, toaster ovens, and other crap?

    Here are my 1911 experiances.

    STI 1911. 5K rounds, 3 malfs.
    Colt Ltwt Cmndr. less than 1K rounds, at least 100 malfs. Bad gun, has been from the start hundreds of malfs.

    So I have one great gun, and one horrible one.

    I can see the point that if a fella had 2 glocks, you wouldnt have one gem and one lemon.

    That point I can see.
    Last edited by dom1104; 06-24-11 at 09:29.

  7. #107
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    1911s have a lot of good ergonomic properties. To me the most important are the trigger, grip angle and the low height over bore.

    Grip angle and HOB aren't incredible unique- thought it seems modern handguns with Browning type barrel lock ups tend to be fairly high HOB. To me, the real unquiness of the 1911 is the trigger.

    Can someone tell me why gun designers have gone away from the trigger bow/sear system in the 1911 to the Rube Goldberg like trigger mechanisms in modern pistols?

    When I got my M&P- I guess the nice way to say it was that I was impressed at the engineering that goes into the trigger mechanism.

    I sit at night with my the frame from an M&P in one hand and a STI2011 in the other and I try to figure out how to get an M&P mag in the STI frame or a trigger bow into the M&P.
    I just did two lines of powdered wig powder, cranked up some Lee Greenwood, and recited the BoR. - Outlander Systems

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    However, we all know in reality that no such 1911 exists, regardless of cost.

    You seem to be very good at regurgitating Larry's thoughts when you think they buttress your points. It doesnt bother you that those of us that have actually trained with Larry are all saying the same thing and it's the opposite of what you say?
    You have a point that producing ultra accurate 1911's is expensive but to say 1911's that can hold 2" group at just 25 yards don't exist.....that's absurd. Have you been exposed to anything outside rack grade tactical guns?

    One of my Bullseye guns that I had made tested out of a ransom rest a 1 5/16" at 50 yards with Federal Gold Medal. I'm starting to realize that some of people on this site are not familiar with many of the "traditional" shooting sports but there are dozens of pistol smiths that can build 1911's like that. It cost me $1200 in 2002. (and please...I'm not implying this gun would run in a middle eastern desert). Thats what a 1911 is capable of. If you could do that off the Glock platform they would be using them at Camp Perry.

    I understand the limitations of 1911(for me thats mainly cost) and I'm currently researching for a modern service pistol. If you know of a modern polymer pistol that can old 2" at just 25 yards in .45 please let me know. I will probably buy it.

    As for LAV, I put the quotes up because some people claim he says certain things that sometimes are in contradiction to what he says on his shows on on his website. Since "I" didn't say anything I'm not bothered at all.

    I am more interested than ever now to attend a LAV course to see what he says about things. I have a formal training class Sunday but discussing the mechanical accuracy potential and mechanical design characteristics has zero to do with how much training I have had.
    Last edited by OldState; 06-24-11 at 10:45.
    "A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish." - Ty Webb

  9. #109
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    Rob,

    It's not about offering opinion, it's about having enough intelligence to take the various opinions offered and make up your own mind about what's best for you. Simply blindly following the advice of someone, especially only one someone, especially when that advice may not be meant for your own situation, can be counter-productive. Ultimately you have to go out and test their advice against your own needs and situation.
    Absolutely. And Larry is without a doubt my second favorite SME (behind Hackathorn who gets extra points for the cool stache' and the ability to make a story about battery selection interesting). That being said, whenever I have talked to Larry he seems to be saying that keeping a 1911 going is just too demanding for the average shooter--and that better choices exist for them. But as I said before, he told me that the 1911 is the easiest gun to shoot well. And after all this advice what do I carry? A Kahr Pm9.
    If you aren't armed when you take a dump in your own home then your opinion on what is a practical daily carry weapon isn't interesting to me.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I agree. SMEs opinions are certainly of value, but there is no way they can know me, my situation, and the finer points unique to same. Taking third-hand quotes from an SME and either using them as an excuse to justify one's opinion or as a reason to get upset is just pointless.
    Yes, this is a discussion forum, and we are here to discuss, but in the case of this thread I really don't see an end in sight beyond the lock we all know is coming eventually.
    It's a matter of time...

    Bill Tidler Jr.
    **************

    ...We have long maintained that the only accessories that a 1911 needs are a trigger you can manage, sights that you can see, and a dehorning job. That still goes.
    ~Jeff Cooper

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