Nevermind. Was already covered
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Yes
No
Nevermind. Was already covered
Last edited by Dunderway; 06-23-11 at 22:24. Reason: Not worth it.
"Obsolete" would imply that it serves no purpose what so ever. Based on his own words I do not think he feels its "obsolete". The 1911 still serves a roll. It still arguable the most accurate non .22 pistol ever designed. If you need to throw a big bullet with pin point accuracy there is no better platform I know of (if there is I would seriously want to know).
Here is a LAV quote from his website that I posted before. I will include the first paragraphs for context but is the last statements that make my point:
"Another question I get frequently asked is what is the acceptable mechanical or intrinsic accuracy for a service pistol or carbine. Meaning what should the weapon/ammo combination be capable of producing from a shooting device or rest that eliminates shooter error. Keep in mind I come from a surgical accuracy oriented special operations background with little margin for error. Based on this and years of experience I have concluded that a service pistol should be capable of head shots at 25 yds and a service carbine should be capable of the same at 100 yds – basically 5 inch groups. However there is a catch; I have found that under conditions of stress a shooter will only be able to shoot to within roughly 50 % of the accuracy potential of a given weapon. And that is only for the best shooters; the majority will not even be close to that. That means in order to achieve my standard of head shots (5 inch groups) at a given distance the weapon/ammo combination needs to be capable of at least 2.5 inch groups. I personally measure that accuracy standard with 10 shot groups. Many quality service pistols and carbines with good ammo will achieve this but there are many other factors involved such as sights and trigger pull characteristics. By these criteria it is not hard to see why a tuned 1911 pistol is so popular in selected spec ops units. Keep in mind that any effort to make a weapon more accurate almost always means tightening tolerances which can lead to a less than acceptable reliability standard for a combat weapon. A balance between accuracy and reliability has to be achieved. Surprisingly there are many pistols and carbines that do a good job offering an acceptable blend of both. In addition weapons of this type will require a higher degree of end user maintenance to keep them running. Don’t expect a pistol to shoot like a custom 1911 but be as forgiving about maintenance as a Glock 17; it just doesn’t happen that way."
Last edited by OldState; 06-23-11 at 22:21.
"A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish." - Ty Webb
Great OldState..
The 1911 is no more accurate then any other service pistol. Unless it is highly tuned with a match barrel, just like any other gun. It is arguably the easiest gun to realize it's accuracy potential. Many guns have closed that gap considerably.
I've seen Vickers make hits with a stock G17 at amazing ranges, & those SpecOp units, don't really use it anymore.
Instead of reading his web site, take a course and see it first hand. And truly understand what he is saying.
Of course I beleive a most recent quote goes along the lines of, "regulated to the same status as cowboy guns".
Bob
Last edited by R Moran; 06-23-11 at 22:42.
" Some people say..any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say, anything can work once" former ABQ swat Sgt.
1911s are like your wife. I love my wife, I can list her flaws better than anyone.
Love isn't ignoring or overlooking faults, it is accepting things as they are.
Most days I only think about getting rid of one of them. Most days.
Sure there are some skiny, light European models that have a lot of plastic and sexy curves and I'll be the first to admit that sometimes when I travel I stop in somewhere and fondle one for awhile. I know that they would be better for me and maybe even make me perform better but I have so much money tied up in the old standby.
1911s are a hobby, my M&P is a tool.
I just did two lines of powdered wig powder, cranked up some Lee Greenwood, and recited the BoR. - Outlander Systems
I'm a professional WAGer- WillBrink /// "Comey is a smarmy, self righteous mix of J. Edgar Hoover and a gay Lurch from the "Adams Family"." -Averageman
Last edited by OldState; 06-23-11 at 23:19.
"A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish." - Ty Webb
I think he's pretty much spot on as to this subject ....... and I'm a hardcore 30 year + 1911 guy.
"The 1911 was the design given by God to us through John M. Browning that represents the epitome of what a killing tool needs to be. It was true in 1911 and is true now."—Colonel Robert J. Coates, USMC
Hello Kettle? This is Pot, your black...
Both the M&P .45 and the HK45 have been noted for their accuracy.
Some rattle trap Remington Rand, is not particuliarly accurate. I shot an M&P 45 and a Vandenberg tuned Kimber 1 back to back in a Vickers class, and even he noted how accurate the M&P was.
I love it when people ignore reality.
Bob
" Some people say..any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say, anything can work once" former ABQ swat Sgt.
This has turned into a "He said; she said." thread that has pretty much accomplished nothing more than hitting the slippery slope of insult and innuendo.
Please read my sig line quote for further edification.![]()
Bill Tidler Jr.
**************
...We have long maintained that the only accessories that a 1911 needs are a trigger you can manage, sights that you can see, and a dehorning job. That still goes.
~Jeff Cooper
It's been interesting reading people's reactions to Larry's comments...
I think it reveals that some folks are willing to embrace a wholly unrealistic view of the 1911; namely, that it remains, to this day, a handgun equal to any others for the very functions it was *originally* designed to be used: as a soldier's sidearm, his backup weapon, his "holy crap my gun just jammed and now I've only got one weapon left to save my life."
These are the very scenarios that Larry is talking about when he makes clear that the 1911 has now been surpassed by sidearms that require less maintenance, less training and offer superior performance in real-world combat situations.
The 1911 is a great pistol. You've got to love it. I own two and they are my favorite handguns to shoot and work with.
Putting on rose colored glasses about the 1911's limitations is not helpful.
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