You know what my biggest problem with this discussion of 1911 v. HK45 is?...
That .45 ACP still costs more than 9x19mm...
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Yes
No
You know what my biggest problem with this discussion of 1911 v. HK45 is?...
That .45 ACP still costs more than 9x19mm...
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We miss you, AC.
We miss you, ToddG.
LAV is spot on about the 1911's demands on its users.
Rob Curtis, who wrote the article in question, seems to have missed the point slightly. Curtis notes, "But when it’s tuned and running well, it’s the most accurate pistol out there".
Accuracy!?! Who cares! Any decent pistol will outshoot its user in practical shooting. Only the Camp Perry types care about gilt-edged mechanical accuracy.
What Curtis fails to note is that the payoff for putting up with the 1911's demands is having a pistol with a light, crisp, straight-to-the-rear, short reset trigger that helps the user shoot well in quick multiple target scenarios. Couple that with a low bore axis and a butt that is small enough for most users and you have the basis of the 1911's appeal.
Many users (and I won't let modesty keep me from including myself) shoot the Glocks and M&P's very well. However, their triggers are an obstacle to be overcome. When it comes to quick splits and good hits on multiple targets, it is tought to do better than with a well set up 1911. Most pistol shooters are probably better served with a Glock or an M&P. They work fine out of the box, have decent sights, and have usable (but not great) triggers. They are durable and cost effective. Most users probably won't practice enough to make the slight shooting advantage offered by the 1911 outweigh the fact that a Glock or M&P is easier to live with.
I can remember when we bought Colt 1911 pistols and sent them right out to a gunsmith for decent sights. The alternative pistols were gawd-awful S&W M-39's and similar. Not surpisingly, America's cops almost all carried revolvers then. It was the pioneering efforts of those developing the modern technique of the pistol, primarily on the 1911 platform, that has educated consumers to the point that they now demand autopistols with sights they can see and triggers they can use. I think it is great that we have several autopistol choices that are great combat pistols these days. Personally, I still include a properly set-up 1911 in this menu of choices, but I can clearly see how many folks would want a less demanding pistol.
Rosco
GT has ten pages you have almost caught them![]()
type 2 operator
Unsurprisingly, I believe Larry is absolutely correct in his accurate comments regarding the 1911 as an issued combat pistol in today's world.
As I have stated several times before, many of our fathers, grandfathers, and great grandfathers didn't seem to complain about their 1911's failing to "always go bang when needed" at Belleau Wood, Guadalcanal, Monte Cassino, Normandy, Bastogne, Chosin, or Khe San. Perhaps Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn are right when they comment on how much more care and concern when into the building of those wartime 1911's... Although it rattled and was heavily worn, the tired old 1944 manufactured M1911A1 I was issued in 1989-1990 went bang every time I pulled the trigger. Keep in mind that the vast majority of USG purchased 1911's were built to a specific TDP and were required to run with magazines and ammunition all made to a certain standard. With rare exceptions, 1911's from current civilian vendors do not have to meet any set requirements and are certainly not being inspected by USG auditors during the assembly process like the original USG contract pistols were. Too many companies these days try to take short cuts on parts quality to reach a specific price point; likewise too many fit the pistols too tight in a quest for match accuracy, rather than striving for combat reliability.
Keep in mind I was issued, used, or carried a 1911 daily from when I was commissioned in 1986 to January 2011 when my 1911's were retired in favor of M&P45's. I have been around quite a few 1911's over the past two decades of military and LE duty, including USGI, commercial Colt, SA (Milspec, Loaded, MC Oper, Professional models), Wilson, Kimber, Nighthawk, Les Baer, and Para Ord, as well as custom pistols by folks like Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak/Joe Bonar, Ed Brown, John Jardine, Hilton Yam, Larry Vickers, and Chuck Rogers. A properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. It has been my experience that in general 1911 pistols in calibers other than .45 ACP and barrels shorter than 5" induce increasingly greater problems. I personally will not use any 1911 with a Schwartz firing pin safety (like on the Kimber II pistols) as I have seen high numbers of them fail; the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety is the only one I might trust for urban LE use, but they have also been known to fail in harsh environments (particularly surf zone and high dust) so I generally prefer a standard USG style 1911 pistol w/o firing pin safety. However, I personally would not choose to carry most stock or even semi-custom 1911's on duty without making sure they were set-up properly with reliable function, durable parts, and ergonomic execution. I firmly believe that if you want a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if you’re not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911...
As has been stated before by others of greater wit than I, if you are a gentleman with a touch of gray in your hair and you were raised on 1911's, then by all means keep using them. However, as much as I love 1911's, for someone new to the game there is no way I can in good conscience recommend starting down the 1911 path when there are currently equally efficacious duty weapons that are much easier to service and that are far more cost effective.
For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with the S&W M&P45, HK45c, or even a G21sf. For the price of one high quality 1911, you can purchase an M&P45 w/Apex Duty Kit, 1000+ rounds of ammunition, and a good pistol training course.
An even better option, unless you get free .45 ACP ammo or live in an anal retentive locale that illogically restricts magazine capacity, is to get yourself a 3rd gen pre-2011 9 mm Glock, M&P9/M&P9c, or HK P30 and be done with it. Then you can forget about hardware and focus on what is truly important--training, practice, and mindset.
What I find very intriguing is the number of guys who decide they don't need a 1911 after attending an LAV 1911 class.
I traded up for a stock Wilson CQB (per LAV's suggestion) anyways. I just love to shoot these things.![]()
Doing my part to keep malls safe
Yes, He bashed the 1911 and rightfully so.
Don't get nostalgic about tools. It's stupid.
Use what works.
just went through some of the stickies in this 1911 forum & I really appreciate the works of art these gents care & take the time to share with us...calling 1911's stupid as a general statement adds no value to this thread.
It's obvious you agree with LAV as do other 1911 owners but you should still edit your thread. I'm sure all those 'stupid' guns 'work' just fine & bet there are plenty of glock / M&P owners who would swap even![]()
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."
Japanese Admiral Yamamoto, 1941
"A wise man's heart directs him toward the right, but a foolish man's heart directs him toward the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2:
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