View Poll Results: Is Larry Vickers Bashing the 1911?

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  • Yes

    21 8.79%
  • No

    218 91.21%
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Thread: Is Larry Vickers Bashing the 1911?

  1. #81
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    First, this is a discussion forum, we discuss things, this particular forum is about guns, so we are discussing them, and what a recognized subject matter expert on the gun in question has to say about it.



    Quote Originally Posted by peruna View Post
    Yep, I agree. I'd rather just read LAV's own answer the OP's question, but instead we now have 2+ pages of opinions. That said, if someone purports to have special insight into LAV's mind set on the subject because they've spoken with him about it, asking for particulars about the conversation is a fair question IMO.



    So what?

    OK, I don't know what LAV thinks, but I can tell you what he told me in the multiple classes I paid to attend....

    ME: "Larry, if you had to stack up on a door to recapture a vital facility, or take down an airliner, what would you want in your 6004?"
    Larry: " Not a 1911"
    At one of the two 1911 operators courses:
    Me: "whats the point?"
    Larry: His classic hand and arm signal for who the F**K knows
    At another 1911 operators class
    Me: Larry, what do you think is the best service pistol right now?"
    Larry: with out even thinking about it, "Glock 17"

    Now Larry can sure as hell come in here and clarify things. But I don't think anyone should tell us what he thinks. I can tell you what he told me. Of course, anyone here can pay to attend a class and hear it first hand.
    For the Vickers bashers, I think its almost narcissistic to ignore what that man has to say regarding the platform, knowing his creds.

    So what? Peruna asked...well, this is one of the reasons we end up like this, and we see all manner of idiots on the range with all manner of crap 1911's, that just have to be the shit, because its a 1911 after all! Its the best!
    When most people say " I shoot the 1911 the best" they mean, "I shoot it the least worst".
    It wouldn't be too bad, accept they then come into discussions like this and tell us how we are F'd up.


    No one here has said to dump your 1911 for a anything, unless the question is asked specifically. Then it becomes another "don't tell me what to do" thread.
    What I see plenty of though, is 1911 worshipers, who have lost touch with reality, insisting that the 1911 is good for them, because they are willing to put the effort in, they are an aficionado, etc etc. They talk about JMB was a genius,( yea, but he wasn't a grunt) Nazi's, years of service, all of it is blown well out proportion.
    What you rarely see, is the 1911 shooters, giving a practical reason for all the effort in running a 1911.

    I've owned bone stock 1911's, Springfield Armory, Colt and Remington Rand, if that was all that was available, it would not survive in any real world tactical environment. Saying they are the equivalent of Glock, Sig, HK, etc is just silly.

    If someone can give me a good reason as to why a $1500 or more 1911 is a better option, w/o getting into the above arguments, I'm all for it.
    Keep in mind, I've owned plenty of 1911's over the years, still own 4 all custom and one built by the original Delta armorer.

    Now, when I'm done, I'll have about $1000 into an M&P, but it did not need it to be reliable and serviceable. When I'm done, I'll have an accurate, reliable, shootable, lightweight, light ready, easy to maintain, easy to replace, gun with 15 rounds of 180grn JHP. Do that with a 1911 for that much money.
    Of course, the M&P was all that out of the box, as was my G17 and 19.

    I don't hate 1911's, just "1911 guys"

    Bob
    " Some people say..any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say, anything can work once" former ABQ swat Sgt.

  2. #82
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    It must be frustrating for a guy like him to even be asked. Isn't like it's super secret, it is just many never really listen or follows threw. We buy a 1911 at a price point, seldom see ultimate results, and then bitch. We all have done it.

    About the only one gun I know pretty well is the M14, specifically building a M21 version and what it takes to bring one up to speed. I did ask the experts, I spent a killer amount of time studying every last detail, measuring, finding the best parts, and I spent shit loads of money in having it built for me by a man I trusted that could do it. It is an impressive rifle, but it was a pure labor of love getting it that way.

    I think the 1911 is one of those types of firearms that simply can't be bought in a box and expect it to be this end all dream gun. It might start out that way, but as Larry said they require a lot of time and workmanship. That and keeping one that way takes a good amount of effort. It to me was a serious no BS assessment with expert insight. I'm just stoked he mentioned Colts being one he'll build off of. It gave me hope my Colts might be something someday.
    Last edited by USMC1341; 06-23-11 at 20:38.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sry0fcr View Post
    IMO there is a liiiiiittle bit of bashing going on... but deservedly so. The 1911 is almost completely obsolete, but we tend to cling to it for nostalgia's sake. It's like daily driving a highly modified car, when you think about it, it's probably not the smartest idea and it's only rewarding when it's running.
    That's not entirely true. Many people like the 1911 because of its trigger design, which so far as I know is still unique to the platform among common pistols.


    -B
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009


    "When young men seek to be like you, when lazy men resent you, when powerful men look over their shoulder at you, when cowardly men plot behind your back, when corrupt men wish you were gone and evil men want you dead . . . Only then will you have done your share." - Phil Messina

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlelebowski View Post
    It wasn't sarcasm. It was a reaction to a nonsensical statement.
    copy...but you knew i didn't mean it that way and were still picking fly crap out of my post.

    peace brother....
    "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."
    Japanese Admiral Yamamoto, 1941




    "A wise man's heart directs him toward the right, but a foolish man's heart directs him toward the left."
    Ecclesiastes 10:2:

  5. #85
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    The 1911 was the first serious modern handgun to be widely adopted.

    It was not the last serious modern handgun however. It is not the final chapter.
    My brother saw Deliverance and bought a Bow. I saw Deliverance and bought an AR-15.

  6. #86
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    Nothing new being mentioned by LAV. The 1911 is as effective today as it ever was but other designs are just better.

    Most shooters today would be perfectly content with the 1911's performance as they are like me...they don't even have the money or time to shoot enough ammo to really push a gun to its limits. So the crisp 1911 trigger, slim profile, excellent grip and ease of shooting the 1911 offers would be more appealing than some promise of having a polymer pistol that can fire 10,000 rounds without cleaning.

    I think that the improvement in 9mm ammo has done as much to make the 1911 a thing of the past as anything else. Also the sunset of the AWB has made the availability of lower priced high cap 9mm magazines widespread.

    Lastly, while Glock's grip offers the same positive feeling of sticking your hand in a turd filled diaper, new pistols like the P30 actually have an excellent, ergonomic grip...something that has been lacking in polymer choices for a many years(Glock, USP, etc.)

    Combine this with the price of .45 ACP ammo increasing dramatically in recent years to a price point not feasible for high volume shooting and the 1911 isn't so attractive anymore.

    Today's 9mm ammo offers less recoil, more capacity, improved performance over the past, lighter weight and is significantly cheaper to buy than .45 ACP.

    So why bother with the 1911...and why bother with .45 ACP. I think this is a conclusion that many come to.

  7. #87
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    I asked Larry this question in class a few years back and he said that he still thought the 1911 was the easiest gun to shoot well.
    If you aren't armed when you take a dump in your own home then your opinion on what is a practical daily carry weapon isn't interesting to me.

  8. #88
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    If you view his comments as bashing over telling the truth you are too emotionally invested. It is a machine. You either make it work or you dont, some machines will work in spite of the owner, the 1911 is not that machine.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Bell View Post
    I asked Larry this question in class a few years back and he said that he still thought the 1911 was the easiest gun to shoot well.
    Maybe, but I doubt he said it was the best combat pistol

    Bob
    " Some people say..any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say, anything can work once" former ABQ swat Sgt.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by orionz06 View Post
    If you view his comments as bashing over telling the truth you are too emotionally invested. It is a machine. You either make it work or you dont, some machines will work in spite of the owner, the 1911 is not that machine.
    I think you're 100% right about that. Some folks don't have the inclination, time or expertise to worry about tuning, filing, fitting, etc. Many folks I've seen in law enforcement are only concerned with pulling the trigger and hearing a bang and not about spending time and treasure keeping their firearm running. I love shooting 1911's but I prefer the polymer. Don't take it personal because an expert tells the truth. I consider it advice and not "bashing." If you can deal with maintaining it, then go for it.

    Leave the guns...bring the cannolis.
    Give me but one firm spot on which to stand and I will move the Earth. -Archimedes

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