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Thread: Trust Lawyers

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Law View Post
    I haven't personally viewed Mr. Goldman's trust ("guntrustlawyer"), but from what I understand it is quite comprehensive (35+ pages in length). My product usually runs about 12 pages and the cat still gets skinned. You have to remember that Mr. Goldman isn't licensed in every state so he has to utilize local counsel. This means splitting the fee, so he has to charge more. Mine are more reasonably priced since I don't have to share.
    35 pages for a basic trust? Anyone have an idea of what Goldman puts in it other then the standard stuff to make it so long?

  2. #12
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    Surely you can find someone to do one for you for less than $600. I know of two in FL that do them for $250 and $395. I know that doesn't help you in Delaware, but I'm just citing these examples to show they really are out there.
    Steve

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
    Surely you can find someone to do one for you for less than $600. I know of two in FL that do them for $250 and $395. I know that doesn't help you in Delaware, but I'm just citing these examples to show they really are out there.
    By way of reference, I currently do mine for $199.

    If someone can get $600 for a NFA trust, I say more power to them.

  4. #14
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    A local (WA state) attorney has created a gun specific trust -- the basic version of which is available for a very reasonable price. He only practices in WA/OR/AK, but the trust system he created is available in other states via WealthCounsel, LLC.

    Try pinging a WealthCounsel attorney in your state:
    http://www.wealthcounsel.com/Attorne...h.aspx?state=7

    ...and ask them about a bronze level "GunDocx" trust.
    Last edited by mattj; 06-27-11 at 01:42.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccosby View Post
    35 pages for a basic trust? Anyone have an idea of what Goldman puts in it other then the standard stuff to make it so long?
    Goldman did mine. There was no one available to do mine locally. He used a lawyer from my state over 100 miles from where I live. I don't have it here but mine includes my wife, son, and son in law all having different rights and responseabilites. We went through 4 revisions during the creation. Based on my experience with attorneys this document would have cost well over $1000 if done locally. He includes instructions on dealing with the BATF and will do amendments in the future for free. As I said, not cheap but I was very happy with the product and they were extremely easy to deal with, responsive, and friendly.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Law View Post
    By way of reference, I currently do mine for $199.

    If someone can get $600 for a NFA trust, I say more power to them.
    It's nice to see someone else charging a more reasonable fee. There is one law firm in Jacksonville, FL (where I live) that I'm aware of that does NFA trusts, and they charge $600 for them. I'm not aware of any others.

    Where I mentioned above that I know of a FL attorney who does them for $395, their price was only $195 up until a few months ago. It's stated on their website that the price was raised due to high demand for this service.
    Steve

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
    It's nice to see someone else charging a more reasonable fee. There is one law firm in Jacksonville, FL (where I live) that I'm aware of that does NFA trusts, and they charge $600 for them. I'm not aware of any others.

    Where I mentioned above that I know of a FL attorney who does them for $395, their price was only $195 up until a few months ago. It's stated on their website that the price was raised due to high demand for this service.
    I actually used the FL attorney you mentioned and it was a very positive experience. It was almost all done online, they had it in a few days, sent me a draft to review...the documents are professionally done and its really a nice Trust.

    However that said, I would not have paid $396 for it. Lets be real...it takes them all of 10 minutes (at least for mine) to plug in who the grantor and trustees are, the addresses, etc.

    I looked at it like I was paying for the assurance, not the actual trust. I guess you could say I was paying to know that it was done right in accordance with Florida and BATFE/Federal law. Still, its barely worth $395, and if they were charged $400 or even $396 I would have gone elsewhere. Especially because I tried to get a trust setup while I was stationed in Hawaii and they told me it was not possible even though I was a Florida resident with a FL address. Damn lawyers...
    Why do the loudest do the least?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Law View Post
    By way of reference, I currently do mine for $199.

    If someone can get $600 for a NFA trust, I say more power to them.
    Law,

    In your experience, how necessary is it to have a lawyer draw up a trust for you that has intimate knowlege with NFA items as opposed to a lawyer that just knows trusts? For example, a lawyer that owns NFA items himself or is a C3 dealer...

    Do you do anything for TX residents? Or have anyone you can recommend?

    Thanks.

  9. #19
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    Assuming you have cooperative local law enforcement leadership and if you don't want persons other than yourself (wife, children, other relatives) to have access to the NFA items it is not worth the effort.

    Of it self, the trust is a PITA.

    That said, If you use an out of state lawyer (i.e. Florida Gun Lawyer), he will have a lawyer finalize the paperwork. So you end up paying for 2 lawyers (and their liability insurance).

    One big advantage about David Goldman is that you have access to a "Gun Lawyer" who understands NFA Law. I sent him an email this week and he answered my questions, no charge. If you hire an attorney worth his salt he won't just do a gun trust without reading and studying NFA law. You don't want to pay for that.

    The numbers I heard to have my trust drawn up locally were all 4 figures.

    My advice, if you know a lawyer, or know someone who has a friend who is a lawyer, get a meeting set up locally and ask some questions.

    In the end, a poorly drafted trust (or poor legal advice on NFA law) could cost you a good bit more than $300.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman8 View Post
    Law,

    In your experience, how necessary is it to have a lawyer draw up a trust for you that has intimate knowlege with NFA items as opposed to a lawyer that just knows trusts? For example, a lawyer that owns NFA items himself or is a C3 dealer...

    I am waiting myself for two stamps for SBRs I am going to build, so it is needless to say I burn a lot of time with clients talking guns. It isn't necessary to have an attorney familiar with NFA, but it helps.

    In my opinion, there are two critical junctures where a (NFA) trust can run into problems.

    1) On the "front end." You have to have a valid trust in order for it to legally own NFA property and for ATF to approve it (in theory - this process of ATF reviewing trusts for validity is a whole 'nother rant for me). An estate planning attorney or even Quicken can get you through this initial step. This gets the trust the stamps and ownership of the NFA property.

    You don't necessarily need an attorney fluent in NFA laws, or even an attorney at all here. Although Quicken, et al., are rife with potential issues, the software can prepare a valid trust for NFA purposes. However, I've seen these Quicken trusts and they are clumsily worded and open you up to a host of problems down the road (see #2).

    2) On the "back end." When the Trustor (or Settlor/Grantor) dies, the trust must distribute the trust property to the beneficiary(ies). This is where a generic revocable living trust (created either by an attorney or Quicken, et al.) can cause problems.

    What if the sole beneficiary lives in a jurisdiction where he/she cannot legally own NFA items? What then? I word my trusts to include language that permits the Trustee to sell the trust property and distribute the proceeds to the afflicted beneficiary in lieu of receiving trust property.

    What about the Trustee (& any Co-Trustees) using the trust property (shooting an SBR or using a can)? A standard trust may not include language permitting the trustees to use the trust property (that is the point with these, right?). This can open up the trustee(s) to liability as the beneficiary can sue them for depreciating the value of the trust property.

    A typical NFA trust is created in the form of a revocable living trust. The Trustor can revoke the trust at any time while he/she is still alive (after death it becomes an irrevocable trust). If this happens before NFA property is transferred, the ATF is going to have kittens. The NFA items will have no owner and there is potential civil/criminal liabilities related to this situation. I draft my trusts to include a requirement that the trust cannot be revoked until the trust property is transferred out first.

    There are numerous other issues that a custom NFA trust can address. You do not HAVE to have an attorney draft your NFA trust, but it does have its advantages. If everyone in your trust is savvy when it comes to firearms and NFA requirements, then a trust for NFA items can probably be drafted by anyone. On the other hand, a specifically tailored NFA trust can address many of these issues so there are fewer headaches on the "back end."

    Do you do anything for TX residents? Or have anyone you can recommend?

    Thanks.
    I am only licensed in NV.

    Unfortunately, I do not know of anyone personally in TX, but I'm sure I've heard of some attorneys out there that do them. I have had some out-of-state folks approach me to do trusts (from as far away as Alaska). What I have told them is that I can do the initial drafting and then they would have to take it to a local attorney to review it vis-a-vis their state's laws. That's $199 for me, plus whatever their local attorney charges.
    Last edited by The Law; 07-16-11 at 12:05.

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