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Thread: Had some extraction problems today at the range...

  1. #11
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    it's what works in YOUR weapon

    I never gave it any thought.I have:
    a 16.1 midlength
    H buffer
    BCM BCG with o-ring
    a Noveske

    it works very well.no deformation of brass at all.chucks'em just fine.eats'em all.
    so as many other aspects go, it is what works in your weapon.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by AR15barrels View Post
    You don't need to upgrade the extraction force on mid-length uppers because they are not over-gassed.
    Only carbine-gassed barrels need extraction upgrades.
    You have created so much extractor tension that the ejector can't overcome it and pitch the fired casing out of the ejection port.

    Leave the crane o-ring off.
    You might also consider going back to the blue extractor spring insert.

    It's possible that your ejector spring is not up-to spec as well, but not likely.
    I have read a bunch of your writings and respect your input. I agree that mid-length do not need the extra extractor tension however, but what will it hurt that won't hurt the carbine? Aren't the bolts & extractors including the ejector & spring the same? Please help me understand.

  3. #13
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    I use extractor upgrade parts on 20", 16" and 24" rifles and have had no problems with extraction or ejection on any of the rifles, even when using steel case ammunition which I have been using a lot of lately due to the ammo price increases.
    No complaints from customers who ask me to build their parts kits or upgrade their rifles either.
    If Lewis Machine and Tool is telling you to use the set-up that you specified with their rifle, power on and listen to what they are saying.
    It doesn't mean that combo is right for every other rifle out on the market.

    I like McFarland one piece gas rings too, and these are specified in the upgrade package, but I have found these don't always work well in every bolt carrier combination and some combos are better off with the standard gas rings.

    I personally have no idea what type of bolt carrier gkanga is using or if the carrier key has loosened up, or if he installed the bolt into the carrier backwards or any of a myraid of other issues that may have cropped up since he started using his rifle again.

    I simply stated that if you decide to do a bolt upgrade here are the parts specified by US Military depot repair to do the job correctly and that some vendors kits do not contain the parts specified.
    That doesn't mean their parts kit won't work stellar with their rifles, it means their parts upgrade kits may not be right for other rifles.

    There was no need to direct a personal attack with quotes because I posted a response you didn't like reading.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by onmilo View Post
    I use extractor upgrade parts on 20", 16" and 24" rifles and have had no problems with extraction or ejection on any of the rifles, even when using steel case ammunition which I have been using a lot of lately due to the ammo price increases.
    No complaints from customers who ask me to build their parts kits or upgrade their rifles either.
    If Lewis Machine and Tool is telling you to use the set-up that you specified with their rifle, power on and listen to what they are saying.
    It doesn't mean that combo is right for every other rifle out on the market.

    I like McFarland one piece gas rings too, and these are specified in the upgrade package, but I have found these don't always work well in every bolt carrier combination and some combos are better off with the standard gas rings.

    I personally have no idea what type of bolt carrier gkanga is using or if the carrier key has loosened up, or if he installed the bolt into the carrier backwards or any of a myraid of other issues that may have cropped up since he started using his rifle again.

    I simply stated that if you decide to do a bolt upgrade here are the parts specified by US Military depot repair to do the job correctly and that some vendors kits do not contain the parts specified.
    That doesn't mean their parts kit won't work stellar with their rifles, it means their parts upgrade kits may not be right for other rifles.

    There was no need to direct a personal attack with quotes because I posted a response you didn't like reading.
    I aaume you are directing this at me, since I'm the only one who quoted you.?

    Re-read my post. I commented specifically on what you opened up as "Vendors Recommendations". Nothing more. I don't really care what you write. Quotes are not "Persoanl Attackes"...they're a reference point.

    If you think that was an attack on you, I apologize, but stay tuned because a "Personal Attack" on this forum is a little more "unforgiving".

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddackerman View Post
    Well...here is what LMT told me is the right replacement parts for THEIR 16" Mid Length MRP upper:

    Mil. Spec Extractor Spring. (Not a high powered spring)
    Mil. Spec Ejector Sping.
    Black Extractor Buffer.
    NO Donut or D Ring!

    This works every time after 7000 rounds in my 16" Mid- Length MRP. Period! There is no need for an "Upgrade Kit" as a "Quality Vendor" puts the right parts in the "Stock Configuration". LMT does not sell an "Bolt Upgrade Kit" to the best of my knowledge.

    Note: This is not for "Carbine Length Gas Systems"!!!

    This being said, LMT has since included the "Donut" in all of their bolts as I have been told. Go figure???

    Bottom line...it's about what works in YOUR weapon.
    They still dont recomend the Oring in their Middy MRP's but include it in their bolts as they sell mostly carbine systems.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 556 View Post
    I have read a bunch of your writings and respect your input. I agree that mid-length do not need the extra extractor tension however, but what will it hurt that won't hurt the carbine? Aren't the bolts & extractors including the ejector & spring the same? Please help me understand.
    In some weapons the upgrades can cause over extraction and lead to torn cases etc.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shihan View Post


    In some weapons the upgrades can cause over extraction and lead to torn cases etc.
    Too strong of an extractor can also cause weak ejection (extractor holds on the the empty for too long). This typically isn't a problem in semi-auto but could be a problem in full-auto. To much extractor tension can also cause problems where it's too hard for the extractor to bounce around the rim on the casing as it's feeding a round into the chamber.

    If you see an AR ejecting forward (2 o'clock) it may either have a weak ejector or too much extractor tension. Only a few of my ARs do this typically the 10-11" SBRs because I use black buffers, Colt or Wolff XP extractor springs and Crane 0-rings or MGI D-fenders.
    Last edited by Robb Jensen; 11-26-07 at 20:46.
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
    Chief Armorer for Corp Arms (FFL 07-08/SOT 02)

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 556 View Post
    I have read a bunch of your writings and respect your input. I agree that mid-length do not need the extra extractor tension however, but what will it hurt that won't hurt the carbine? Aren't the bolts & extractors including the ejector & spring the same? Please help me understand.
    If the ejector spring is in good shape, it should have no problem overriding the excess extractor tension.
    When you add an o-ring to a bolt with a weak ejector spring, you may experience failures to eject.
    If you are not having this problem, nothing will be hurt having the o-ring, even if it's not needed.
    Randall Rausch
    AR15 Barrel Guru
    California Precision Rifle Club founding member

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shihan View Post
    In some weapons the upgrades can cause over extraction and lead to torn cases etc.
    Sorry.
    No such thing as "over extraction"
    It either extracts properly, or it does not.

    You are confusing early extraction coupled with extraction upgrades (which does rip off rims) as having something to do with extractor tension.
    The timing is the problem, not the extractor tension.
    The extractor tension is just the "easy" fix for extraction timing problems.

    Torn rims are the way that you KNOW that you have an early extraction problem.
    Randall Rausch
    AR15 Barrel Guru
    California Precision Rifle Club founding member

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by AR15barrels View Post
    Torn rims are the way that you KNOW that you have an early extraction problem.
    True enough....

    How I decided I had too much spring tension on both my M4 and SPR was the "gouges" the edges of the extractor claw put on the rim of the cartridge... If I didn't reload it wouldn't be a big deal as it always extracted, but since I cherish my military brass, I had to back of by removing the Crane o-ring...

    Rmpl
    "Our destruction... will be from another quarter. From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence..."
    ...Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837

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