Acceptable accuracy of shooter

[spamsammich]

Thanks again for all the replies.

@uwe1


I'm not positive I'm following you here. Once the trigger breaks it is all the way back. At that point I'm not pressing hard but just holding.

IOW I'm trying to be slow and deliberate to be certain the foundation is there. I hold the trigger back as part of follow through. It's the last step. Some times I mentally review the shot and decide to lower the barrel to the bench at which time I release the trigger. I suppose I should stop doing that and release the trigger while the sights are still aligned on target.

...

Yes, please break this habit immediately. I spent a lot of time last time trying to get my shooting partner to stop checking his hits between trigger pulls. You should be able to track the sights through the recoil motion or at least see where they end up and get them back on target immediately. The habit of lowering the may form a training scar that gives the bad guy a chance to shoot back. My buddy's training scar ran so deep that he didn't even know he was dipping the gun and looking for his hits. After a while you'll be able to call your shots and know you hit without having to dip the barrel down to look.

[Jim D]

Yes, please break this habit immediately. I spent a lot of time last time trying to get my shooting partner to stop checking his hits between trigger pulls. You should be able to track the sights through the recoil motion or at least see where they end up and get them back on target immediately. The habit of lowering the may form a training scar that gives the bad guy a chance to shoot back. My buddy's training scar ran so deep that he didn't even know he was dipping the gun and looking for his hits. After a while you'll be able to call your shots and know you hit without having to dip the barrel down to look.

Agreed, every string of fire I shoot, I end it with a sight picture on target and a prepped trigger ready to fire again.

The shot timer stops when you fired your last shot...you can take all day to top off, scan, etc.

Always be ready to shoot again, IMO.

I'm not always able to rest "in recoil", but I'm always reset before my sights are settled back in again. As the sights are leveling out, the slack after the reset comes back out and I hold there until I decide to shoot again or abort the shot.

[spamsammich]

Agreed, every string of fire I shoot, I end it with a sight picture on target and a prepped trigger ready to fire again.

The shot timer stops when you fired your last shot...you can take all day to top off, scan, etc.

Always be ready to shoot again, IMO.

I'm not always able to rest "in recoil", but I'm always reset before my sights are settled back in again. As the sights are leveling out, the slack after the reset comes back out and I hold there until I decide to shoot again or abort the shot.

Removing the slack from the trigger pull immediately after the initial recoil, as the sights are coming back down on target is how I've been taught to prep the trigger.

[tb-av]

Yes, please break this habit immediately. I spent a lot of time last time trying to get my shooting partner to stop checking his hits between trigger pulls. You should be able to track the sights through the recoil motion or at least see where they end up and get them back on target immediately.

Ok, I can break this one.

I can't say I can track the sights through the entire shot. It's more like a light switch

1. On - sights aligned
2. Bang - switch flipped to Off
3. Switch flipped back to ON and sights are usually pretty well alligned.

So it's like someone flips a light switch really fast. Are you saying you can follow the muzzle going up then back down. You actually see and follow the entire recoil?

[mizer67]

Just so you know, the 2.5-3 inch group requirement comes from Delta. Apparently they have learned that under stress, all groups double in size. So if you are a 6" group shooter then you are going to shoot 12" groups in a fight (or worse). C4

My favorite quote about this fact above comes from my father (a Vietnam vet.), who says, "You're only half as good in a gunfight, boys, as your best day on the range."

[Jim D]

Ok, I can break this one.

I can't say I can track the sights through the entire shot. It's more like a light switch

1. On - sights aligned
2. Bang - switch flipped to Off
3. Switch flipped back to ON and sights are usually pretty well alligned.

So it's like someone flips a light switch really fast. Are you saying you can follow the muzzle going up then back down. You actually see and follow the entire recoil?

Many accomplished competetive shooters can watch the front sight lift and settle through the recoil cycle...I'm not one of them. I can usually see it start to move/lift, but then I usually loose it until it is all but leveled out again.

It's not a critical to being "good" or not, but if you're eyes work well enough and you can do it, it probably doesn't hurt.

I imagine it's a lot easier to track a bright green FO front sight on a Sig X5 than a black target sight on Glock 19. Slide speed, both eyes open versus one eye open, contrast of sights against environment, will make it easier or harder to see it move through the recoil pattern.

[uwe1]

About holding the trigger back...

I noticed that if I developed a habit to hold the trigger to the rear, I would sometimes squeeze harder with my index finger, causing the muzzle to dip.

Now, after the shot breaks, I try to immediately let off the trigger to the reset point, which for me, has helped to reduce that hard trigger squeeze.

On some strings of fire, I can track the sights through the entire cycle, but this varies. I couldn't track it not too long ago because I realized that I would close my eyes right at the "bang". I've gotten better at that, but still have a lot of work to do.

[tb-av]

Well guys I got those dummy rounds and they are quite an eye opener.

I shot maybe 150 rounds today and it was amazing what I was seeing. Rather than a bang and regather the sights, it was like watching a movie. Every time, I thought...oh ok, that's why they go over there, or that's why they go down there.

Anyway I had very few really bad strays, but still have a lot to eliminate. Generally speaking I'm down to about 4" circles. This target is one of the better ones. Those 4 low shots I could actually tell what I was doing. I really feel better about this now. I honestly think if I spend a lot of time with these dummy rounds I can get the groups to shrink. Anyway, it may not look great but I can see light at the end of the tunnel

[arizonaranchman]

Keep it simple. Train as much as you are able and with time you'll cut the group sizes down. But realistically if you can put all your rounds onto a 8" or 10" paper plate at whatever ranges you anticipate working at then you're good to go for self defense purposes. Don't get all hung up on trying to shoot a 2" or 3" group at a man who's 10' away charging you with a knife or shooting at you. Fill him with holes until he stops his aggressive attack. Don't quit shooting until he stops. If you can routinely put your rounds on the pie plate in the center of a guy's chest and you can do it fast then you'll be doing fine for starters. Once you've gotten to that level then challenge yourself with increasingly smaller targets and faster and faster speeds until perhaps a coffee saucer is your goal.

Handguns regardless of caliber are poor stoppers so multiple hits are nearly always required. Center of mass as a point of aim is generally your best choice in self defense shooting. Focus heavily on point shooting also - with the gun up at/near eye level or mid-level where you can see it in your peripheral vision but yet are still focused on the bad guy and not your gun. You need to see HIM and what he's doing. In countless cases LE's who've been in close quarters gunfights nearly never remember consciously taking their eyes OFF the bad guy to look at their sights. It's nearly impossible to do in reality and against your natural survival instinct to take your eyes off of a threat that's just a few feet away from you to look at something else.

Point shooting is EXTREMELY effective at 3 to 5 yards and even to 7 yards with training. But it does take training and repetition. I strongly recommend you get a quality Airsoft pistol as similar to your's as possible. This will enable you to fire thousands of rounds point shooting for just a few dollars. You can do it in your back yard or basement. The Airsoft pellets can easily be seen hitting the target so you get immediate feedback as to where you're at. You can build up speed until you're literally firing 4 to 5 rounds per second and putting 100% of those rounds center mass even while you're moving. Again this is close quarters/room-sized ranges, but that's what 90+% of shootings involve anyway.

My agency trains in just this way and it's amazing how fast and accurate you can be point shooting if you train. With P226's we put 4 to 5 rounds per second on center mass.

This is not to discount proper marksmanship skills and accuracy, but you have to remember that you don't have time to square up and take a careful aim at a dirtbag who's blazing away at you from a distance of 10 feet. Get that gun on target and work that trigger as fast as you can... and MOVE dont just stand there. Moving and shooting will be your goal once you've got the basics down. Again the Airsoft makes this sort of training possible as public ranges won't allow any movement like this.

Once ranges get to beyond 7 yards or so then yes your sights and more deliberate fire discipline are necessary.

I can hit a man sized silouette at 100 yards with a 2" Chief Special. Small guns can shoot at longer distances, but it takes skill once you get past 10 yards.