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Thread: 3" Inch 9mm Carry Loads?

  1. #21
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    Just to get an accurate representation of what is being said, basically, the same 127gr +P+ Ranger T that I use for carry in my G19 is "acceptable" ammunition in a G26, it just probably isn't the most optimal ammo to use? I'm not worried about losing a little bit of velocity because the barrel is so small.

    I understand that 147gr. would keep it's velocity better, and understand the mechanics of dwell time and velocity. I'm just wondering if there are any other drawbacks to using this ammunition in a sub-compact other than increased muzzle flip and lower velocity retention than on a compact or full-size.

  2. #22
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    Surprising that there is not more official testing by major departments or the FBI that allow the use of small barreled back up guns on duty.

    Now many say that the 147gr maybe a good choice but I have always been a "Show Me" type of person that likes to see solid, reliable testing results before making a defensive ammunition choice.

    Would anyone know what the expansion window velocity wise for the Federal HST 147gr loading is?

  3. #23
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    I don't have any definitive info on this, but I do recall one of the Winchester engineers speaking about a widened expansion window being a feature of their updated Ranger-T line, to address this very issue..

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phila PD View Post
    Surprising that there is not more official testing by major departments or the FBI that allow the use of small barreled back up guns on duty.

    Now many say that the 147gr maybe a good choice but I have always been a "Show Me" type of person that likes to see solid, reliable testing results before making a defensive ammunition choice.

    Would anyone know what the expansion window velocity wise for the Federal HST 147gr loading is?
    That's exactly why I ask. I am a "show me" type of person and there seems to be no clear answer to this question in sight, I've been looking pretty hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kowalski View Post
    I don't have any definitive info on this, but I do recall one of the Winchester engineers speaking about a widened expansion window being a feature of their updated Ranger-T line, to address this very issue..
    But just how wide is that window. I bought a case of 127gr +P+, I think I may have to dedicate a box to some testing. I think that it will yield good results. I'm just, again, a "show me" type of person.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperashes View Post
    That's exactly why I ask. I am a "show me" type of person and there seems to be no clear answer to this question in sight, I've been looking pretty hard.

    But just how wide is that window. I bought a case of 127gr +P+, I think I may have to dedicate a box to some testing. I think that it will yield good results. I'm just, again, a "show me" type of person.
    That +P+ loading in a small light weight pistol is going to be a handful, please post a review once you have a chance to do so.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phila PD View Post
    That +P+ loading in a small light weight pistol is going to be a handful, please post a review once you have a chance to do so.
    Will do. It should be a couple of weeks before I get to. I'll do some side-by-side comparison with some other types of ammo too.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperashes View Post
    Will do. It should be a couple of weeks before I get to. I'll do some side-by-side comparison with some other types of ammo too.
    Viperashes,

    Did you ever get a chance to test out the different loads?

    Thanks!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phila PD View Post
    Surprising that there is not more official testing by major departments or the FBI that allow the use of small barreled back up guns on duty.

    Now many say that the 147gr maybe a good choice but I have always been a "Show Me" type of person that likes to see solid, reliable testing results before making a defensive ammunition choice.

    Would anyone know what the expansion window velocity wise for the Federal HST 147gr loading is?
    My agency hosted a ballistics workshop today for ATK. In 9mm the three rounds tested were the following:

    Federal HST 147 gr (P9HST2)
    Speer 124 gr +P (53617)
    Winchester 147gr JHP (WWB - Current issued duty load)

    The test gun was a M&P9 (4" barrel). Bare Gel, 4 layer denim, wall board and auto glass tests were done.

    After, that, bare gel tests were done with a M&P9c (3.5" barrel). The penetration of the HST round was exactly the same with the M&P9c as with the M&P9 (14.25").

    I had a personally owned Kahr PM9 that I included. A bare gel shot of all three rounds was conducted. The penetration of the HST round only increased to 15". I don't have the other figures as the data sheet is at the range with our Range Master. But the minimum and maximum expansion, and retained weight of the HST round from the 3.5" M&P9c to the 3" PM9 wasn't enough to get excited about.

    I am sure of the data as I was the one doing the measuring for this workshop. (ATK prefers to not have their personnel do the measuring.)

    Bottom line, I personally would not worry about the 147 gr HST in a 3" PM9.

    Other things I might mention: The Federal flight control 00Buck loading is amazing. Our current reduced recoil 00 Buck grouped 11" at 50'. The Federal flight control loading grouped 5.5" out of the same 870 at 50".

    The Speer 38spc 135gr +P out of my S&W 642 went 11.5" in bare gel, and looked picture perfect in the uniformity of it's expansion.

    Shooting a 9mm 147gr HST round and a 230gr 45 HST round into the same block of gel is an eye opening experience. Both rounds penetrated to exactly the same distance. Carrying 17 rds of 9mm vs 10 rds of 45? A no brainer for me...

    Kent and Johann from ATK were a class act. Johann really knows what he's talking about and is an interesting guy to talk with. But after spending the day with him, I now feel the need to go buy a folding Strider knife!

    Next week, Winchester is coming out. Will see how the 147gr Ranger loading performs out of the PM9.

  9. #29
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    Beat Trash,thanks for posting this info.I've been mulling over what load I was going to use in a PPS. Looks like I may just stick with my regular 147's.
    Do you recall the penetration depths of the 45 and 9mm HST's that penetrated the same in the gel?
    A fine is a tax for doing wrong.A tax is a fine for doing well.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat Trash View Post
    Shooting a 9mm 147gr HST round and a 230gr 45 HST round into the same block of gel is an eye opening experience. Both rounds penetrated to exactly the same distance. Carrying 17 rds of 9mm vs 10 rds of 45? A no brainer for me...
    A no brainer if you only want to look at half the equation. Doc preaches penetration AND expansion. Remember, in handgun rounds the temporary cavity is not important... the permanent crush cavity is. An HST 230 +P expanded to .85" gives you better odds of striking a vital structure than does an HST 147gr 9mm expanded to .61 inches (based on the correctly measured data from Doc, not the incorrectly measured bullet diamters from ATK). In fact, if we assume a perfect circle and look at the area the .45 crushes (pi x r-squared), it is almost double at .567 in-sq vs. .292 in-sq for the 9mm. If we want to compare real mag capacity, I will take my 14 rounds of .45 (Glock 21SF) vs. your 18 rounds of 9mm. Finally, the fact that a heavier bullet will have more momentum is a proven scientific fact. The 230 grain bullet is much less likely to be swayed by bone and will retain more velocity over longer distances than the 147 will.
    Last edited by Swatdude1; 11-12-11 at 10:54.

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