3" Inch 9mm Carry Loads?

[regal]

Gee I thought this was a 9mm thread.

Anyway whats wrong with Federal 115 +P+ 9BPLE? Many times it is available at near nato fmj prices. Also Winchester has the ranger +P that comes up reasonable at times also. Seems like once a year on of them pops up for cheap. I am just a believer that with your primary CCW you should practice with the same ammo you carry. You just never know as far as hollow points and jams and it takes a lot of rounds to have the confidence and natural reflex with a round that you want if God Forbid you ever actually need to use it. I guess I am willing to give up the slight ballistic handicap for using the same round I practice with.

Now if you can afford a few thousand rounds of the $1 a pop stuf, then by all means go for it but the rest of us? Eh I don't know.

[Nephrology]

Finally, momentum is a proven scientific fact. .

haha, that's like saying "cells are a proven scientific fact." That doesn't really mean anything if you don't put it into context.

There is no point in abusing science to try to prove yourself right. If anything the only thing that 50+ years of formalized ballistic testing has shown is is that there is a lot that we still can't examine or quantify, and that nothing that we have come up with proves anything definitively.

The differences between the classic duty cartridges are minimal and not really worth fighting about. It is more important to examine the different options for JHPs within a given caliber and pistol to determine what will work best for you and not so much what you think should work best for others. This thread is better left to the discussion of what loads work best in 3" 9mm barrels as there is much more to be gained from that than a petty caliber war.

[Swatdude1]

haha, that's like saying "cells are a proven scientific fact." That doesn't really mean anything if you don't put it into context.

There is no point in abusing science to try to prove yourself right. If anything the only thing that 50+ years of formalized ballistic testing has shown is is that there is a lot that we still can't examine or quantify, and that nothing that we have come up with proves anything definitively.

The differences between the classic duty cartridges are minimal and not really worth fighting about. It is more important to examine the different options for JHPs within a given caliber and pistol to determine what will work best for you and not so much what you think should work best for others. This thread is better left to the discussion of what loads work best in 3" 9mm barrels as there is much more to be gained from that than a petty caliber war.

While I appreciate your condescending comments, this is not a petty caliber war. My daily carry gun is a Kahr PM9 loaded with Winchester 127 gr +P+. I edited my comment for clarity above. It is a proven fact that a heavier bullet has more momentum. If you had read my post carefully, you would have noted the second part of the momentum comment that a heavier bullet, all other things being equal, will maintain its velocity longer. My point was of the post was not to bag on the 9mm, but to point out that there was another component to look at other than penetration, i.e, expansion. Mag capacity is another component. We need to remember that we are dealing with a platform that is less than ideal for the job at hand. A handgun is a trade-off of convenience versus firepower. I remember my firearms instructor in the academy asking us, "if you knew you would be in a gun fight this very afternoon, what gun would you take with you?" Some answers were M60 machine gun, 12-gauge shot gun, 300 Win Mag, etc. I carried a Glock 22 on duty for 10-years because the Glock 21 grip was just too fat for me until I finally got the slim frame.

Your comment, "nothing proves anything", wreaks of the current nihilistic attitude which has crept into the scientific community as of late.

[KhanRad]

Review Molon's chrono posts on this...basically 147's suffer less velocity loss out of short barrels. Federal sells both standard and +P 147gr HST loads that would be a good option.

Indeed:


The 147gr standard pressure load suffers the least amount of velocity loss when fired out of shorter barrels. It is a far more efficient loading than +P or +P+.

Going with a higher pressure, higher velocity load is a matter of diminishing returns in shorter barrels. The faster the bullet travels, the faster it leaves the barrel and doesn't allow the charge to burn off inside the barrel and thus.....build up more pressure. Standard pressure ammo, particularly the 147gr load, stays inside the barrel longer allowing more powder to be burned and more pressure buildup. I've often found lots of unburned powder in +P and +P+ 9mm as well as .357sig. Not so with standard pressure loads or slower velocity .40 and .45. The same principle applies to rifle calibers. In 5.56, heavier, slower velocity loads suffer less velocity loss in SBRs and are better for those applications.

[Swatdude1]

While I agree with this data, do you see a fallacy with looking at velocity loss as opposed to actually comparing the velocity of specific rounds out of a 3-inch barrel as it relates to their expansion threshold?

[Nephrology]

Your comment, "nothing proves anything", wreaks of the current nihilistic attitude which has crept into the scientific community as of late.

Skepticism is healthy and a big part of the natural sciences, particularly skepticism in one's own methodology and the strength of its conclusions.

[regal]

While I agree with this data, do you see a fallacy with looking at velocity loss as opposed to actually comparing the velocity of specific rounds out of a 3-inch barrel as it relates to their expansion threshold?

Yep, % velocity drop probably isn't a simple linear relation to change in expansion.

I think probably the smartest thing to do is find a reputable JHP round you can afford and control/shoot the best with. Get enough experience with that ammo in your pistol so it is routine. Loading your carry weapon with expensive ammo you rarely shoot cause it has better numbers on paper just doesn't seem wise.

[KhanRad]

While I agree with this data, do you see a fallacy with looking at velocity loss as opposed to actually comparing the velocity of specific rounds out of a 3-inch barrel as it relates to their expansion threshold?

Indeed. Each individual bullet design and weight is setup differently. A 124gr+P Gold Dot may have reliable exansion 75fps slower than what it was designed for, but a HST may be able to push that envelope from -100 to -150. Probably why Speer felt a need for producing short barrel ammunition for its Gold Dot line, while Federal didn't feel it necessary with the HST.

All that being said, you'll likely get good performance out of any of top three manufacturers......Federal, Speer, and Winchester in 3" barrels. The +P+ loads still work well, I just feel that the extra blast, flash, and recoil particularly out of a smaller barrel are unnecessary distractions to the shooter to slow down your shooting and alertness. Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and Gary Roberts seem to like the 147gr HST.

[Swatdude1]

I broke down last night and ordered 150 rounds of Federal HST 147 gr +P's from Kyle's Gunshop. The 127 gr +P+, while not un-manageable, does have significant muzzle jump. Not sure when I can get to the range in the next week or two but I will post up my results with the PM9.

[tpd223]

Gee I thought this was a 9mm thread.

Anyway whats wrong with Federal 115 +P+ 9BPLE? Many times it is available at near nato fmj prices. Also Winchester has the ranger +P that comes up reasonable at times also. Seems like once a year on of them pops up for cheap. I am just a believer that with your primary CCW you should practice with the same ammo you carry. You just never know as far as hollow points and jams and it takes a lot of rounds to have the confidence and natural reflex with a round that you want if God Forbid you ever actually need to use it. I guess I am willing to give up the slight ballistic handicap for using the same round I practice with.

Now if you can afford a few thousand rounds of the $1 a pop stuf, then by all means go for it but the rest of us? Eh I don't know.

Doc doesn't recommend the BPLE because the disadvantage is not "slight".

The various old school 115gr +P and +P+ loads typically over expand and fragment on bare gel tests, and often fail to expand through heavy clothing/4 layer denim tests.

The BPLE fails to expand like 20-25% of the time when shot through heavy clothing. OIS performance backs up these tests.

These loads also suck at getting through cover effectively.

I would carry BPLE over ball ammo (and in the past I have actually done so), but I would much rather carry any of Gold Dot, Ranger-T or HST loads.


FWIW, In real life I have noted that the 124gr +P Gold Dot works almost exactly the same, terminal ballistics wise, whether it is launched from a G26 or a G17.